Dr. Greg Smalley: I think we put so much effort and energy into courting, dating, winning her, putting that ring on her finger. What we notice is that oftentimes, when we accomplish that, then our – our focus changes to all these other things, so figuring out jobwise, careerwise, having kids, staying involved with friends and family – all these things cry for our attention. And there begins then a slow fade.
End of Excerpt
John Fuller: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And our guests today are Dr. Greg Smalley and his wife Erin. I’m John Fuller. And thanks so much for joining us today.
Jim Daly: You know, John, Jean and I’ve been married for – well, let me say a number of years, over 30, actually (laughter).
John: That’s awesome. Congratulations.
Jim: It is awesome. And you and Dena have been, too. Uh, but some wonderful seasons together, and then there’s those other seasons. We’ll just put it that way. You know, someone (laughter) once said to me, “I’ve been married 30 years, and 28 of them were great.”
Jim: You know, it’s one of those lines. But, you know, we do want you to have a great marriage. That’s what God intends for all of us, to be connected emotionally, spiritually, physically. And here at Focus on the Family, couples contact us all the time because they’ve drifted apart. And it’s kind of normal in this culture to allow that to happen. And today, we’re going to talk about how to counter that, so you can, uh, invest in your marriage and your marriage can grow in a way God is honored. And, uh, we care about your marriage, and we want to give you the greatest potential to have the best marriage you can have.
John: And Greg and Erin Smalley head up our marriage team here at Focus. And, uh, they’ve written a number of books. We always enjoy talking to them. Reconnected: Moving from Roommates to Soulmates in Your Marriage is, uh, just out, and we’ve got that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Greg and Erin, it’s always good to have you here. Welcome back.
Mrs. Erin Smalley: Oh, it’s always such a pleasure.
Greg: Yeah, we love it when you let us out of our offices to come down and join you.
Jim: Out of the cage. I was gonna say, “What?” Well, listen. You have written a wonderful book together. And you speak together and encourage couples to have strong, healthy marriages, so we’re going to kind of put that to the test today. Uh, there was a point in your own marriage where you felt like (laughter) things were drifting. And I – you know, one thing I like about what we’re doing, John, it is normal to have this happen. You don’t have to be embarrassed, as a Christian couple particularly. But the tools to correct these things is what we want to talk about.
Jim: So, what was going on earlier in your marriage, when you felt this drift, and what does it look like?
Greg: Well, I was stunned when Erin sat me down and said, “Here’s the bottom line. I love you. I’m committed to you for a lifetime. But I feel like we are nothing more than married roommates.” And it – it was so surprising to me because we were – yeah, I guess as I look back, we were in a really hard season of just being super busy. We had young kids. We had started a new ministry working with couples in crisis. So, here we both have our master’s degree (laughter) and doctorate in counseling, and we’re supposed to have this great marriage. We’d written books on marriage. And here I have my wife telling me that, “Yeah, we’re nothing more than married roommates.” And so, I think it was just that – that season that we were super busy, working a lot and just had drifted apart. And I didn’t realize that. I thought everything was going great, and thus I didn’t know what she really meant by that. Like, “What? Okay, what are you saying? Are we done? Are we… Am I in trouble?” I was so taken back by it.
Jim: So, what were you saying, Erin?
Erin: Well, I was just helping him understand. So, I was available because I loved him.
Jim: Oh, you were helping him (laughter).
Erin: So I could just help him understand what was really going on. The truth is, is that most couples, when they get married – you know, they’ve been hard after pursuing each other, and so their focus is directly on one another. And then they – they conquer. They get married. And then many other things start to take their eyes off of each other. You think about, you know, work and kids and just the pursuit of this new life. And that’s what I was saying to Greg, is that our eyes have not remained on each other. It’s been this slow fade of – we went from absolutely pursuing each other wholeheartedly to pursuing many other things wholeheartedly.
Jim: Yeah. Tell me about the safety pin in your first travel experience. What was that all…
Jim: That was in courtship. But what was going on?
Greg: So, we’d just been engaged for a few months. I was moving from Phoenix, Arizona, to Denver, Colorado, to attend Denver Seminary. So, I asked Erin, “Hey, why don’t you come with me? We’ve got some friend – family friends. You can stay with them, see where we’re gonna be next year when we get married.” And so, I’d loaded up a U-Haul. I was going to tow my car behind. The only U-Haul that was available – because I didn’t pre-book anything…
Greg: …Was one that had a stick shift, and it just didn’t – I really didn’t have a good experience driving that.
Erin: And it was a humongous one. Like, we needed a little tiny one.
Erin: And the only one left was this massive thing.
Greg: It was like a 45-footer. You know, it’s standard…
Jim: That’s probably where you don’t wanna overbuy.
Greg: And so – so I thought I hooked everything up right. And so, as I started – so early in the morning, Erin came over. We got in, say goodbye to my parents. And so, as I started down the road, I think I popped the clutch too hard, and we kind of jerked four or five times down the road. And all of a sudden, I looked in a side mirror, and I see my dad…
Greg: …You know, this famous author, Gary Smalley, running after the truck. And I’m – and I’m like, it’s embarrassing. Tell her…
Jim: Oh, he loves you.
John: Let go of it, Dad.
Greg: Yeah. It’s time to cut the cord.
Greg: I was, “What is he doing?” And he ran marathons, so I’m like, “He can at least go for 26 miles here following me.”
Greg: And she’s like, “Just pull over. He probably wants one last hug.” “Ugh.” I pull over, roll the window down, and as he comes right up, I’m kind of reaching for him to give one last hug. And he goes, “Greg, you idiot.”
Greg: Like, wow, that’s one way to kick me out of the nest – sort of speak. And he goes, “Don’t you see what’s in front of our house still?” And as I really scanned through the rearview mirror, I could see my car that was on the trailer still…
Jim: One time.
Greg: …Left behind. I guess when I popped the clutch, I knocked the whole thing off the hitch, didn’t install it right.
Greg: Whatever I did – but there it was. Well, I tell you what stands out is Erin laughed and laughed and laughed for, like, 10 minutes. She thought that was the cutest thing that I wouldn’t check to see if the safety pin was in right.
Greg: And that’s so true – right? – about marriage. Early on in our marriage, everything’s funny and adorable and cute. And all these things that begin to irritate us…
Erin: Yeah, because it just wasn’t the car because I can remember we’re, you know, 20 miles outside of Phoenix. And I said, you know, “Do you have directions? Do you have a map?” Because before – this was before, you know…
John: GPS and everything else, yeah.
Erin: …GPS and all that. And I thought it was so sweet that he had no idea where we were going. We were just going to follow signs.
Greg: North, north (laughter).
Jim: Okay, so then things…
Jim: You get married, and things begin to change.
Erin: Very much so.
Jim: (Laughter) Those aren’t so cute anymore.
Erin: And, you know, I wish I could have seen the indication of what I was signing up for. But, you know, those things are cute and funny back then. They become irritations and annoyances. And often we can become bitter and begin to believe, what in the world? I married this – the wrong person. And, you know, the truth is this slow fade sets in, and we can become roommates and isolated and lonely. And that is not what marriage was created to be.
Greg: And we hear this all the time. So, as we work with couples, as we’re out doing events for Focus, we hear this. People come up and say, “We love each other. We’re just – you know, we’re committed, but we’re just so disconnected. We feel like nothing more than married roommates.” And so, Erin and I went on sort of this journey to go, well, what does that mean? So, if John is saying that he feels like roommates, if you’re saying that, if we’re saying that, does that mean the same thing to everybody? And what we discovered by interviewing and studying all these couples that it seemed like there were about 10 major things that stood out that cause people to feel like they’re roommates.
Greg: And so, we went all right, let’s take those 10 things, help people understand why it happened. And then what’s one – just one solution for each one of those 10? And that’s really the – the book. And that’s why we’re – we’re thrilled. And I tell you, it’s made such a big difference even in our own marriage.
Jim: Erin, let me ask you in this – this roommate, I guess, comparison, you use in the book this idea of soul mate/roommate. So, elaborate on both of those.
Erin: We heard – we hear this a lot from couples, especially when they’re hurting, that, I’ve met my soul mate. And so, just the world’s definition of soul mate, just – we hate it. We don’t like it. And so, really, what we’re talking about – soul mate in the instance of this book – is that there’s one person that you have made this covenant relationship agreement with…
Jim: Kind of a Biblical context, right?
Jim: That the two shall become one. And that one, you’re saying, is like a soul mate.
Erin: Yes, and that you’re experiencing the deepest levels of connection and intimacy possible this side of heaven, that we are having those deep conversations, deep connection. We’re experiencing sexual intimacy. We’re – you know, we’re doing life together. We’re best friends.
Erin: And it is – that’s what a soul mate is. And I love experiencing that with Greg. And it’s a lifelong journey that we’re committed to forever till death do us part.
Jim: And we’re going to get more into that as we describe the attributes of the book. But, Greg, you also use this combination of wild beasts, the little foxes that attack or affect your marriage. What – what are you getting at there?
Greg: Yeah, so King Solomon, as he was getting married, his fiancée told him that, “Listen. You need to guard our relationship. You need to catch the little foxes that’ll come into our vineyard of love and destroy it.” And what she was saying is that there are some big, wild beasts out there, bears and lions who certainly would do damage. But it’s actually these small, little foxes, these little creatures that can invade our marriage that we really need to guard against. The research is so clear that couples certainly will divorce if, you know, if there’s been some infidelity or some of these big things. But more often, what you hear is, “Well, we just fell out of love. We just drifted apart.”
Greg: “There’s irreconcilable differences.” Those are the little foxes. It’s a – it’s a slow fade. We get married super quick. We – we find this person. We court this person. And we get married. And then over time, there’s just this tiny, slow drift. And so, often it’s – it’s something specific. Maybe they have young kids, and they’re just – no sleep. They’re just exhausted. Maybe it’s a special-needs child. Maybe it’s caring for older parents. Maybe they’re starting a new business. There’s something going on in their life that is…
Greg: …That is draining that they’ve had to give so much time and attention to that – at the end of the day, they look at their spouse and go, “I love you, but I got nothing. I have nothing to give.” And that’s a small little fox.
Erin: Yeah, or it could be that there’s conflict. There’s things that aren’t going well within the relationship, and there – there’s an unwillingness or unawareness that, hey, I need to bring these things up in a way that feels good to both of us. But then what happens is hearts close, maybe harden. And then they – they end up living these very separate lives, maybe developing separate groups of friends or, you know, just – just not crossing paths.
Erin: And hearts are hard. And then – then we make choices and do things that are not true to who we really are.
Jim: Or are destructive…
Jim: …To the marriage. Greg, you helped develop something that’s been incredibly successful here at Focus, the Focus on Marriage Assessment. And you’ve had, you know – we have had, like, 800,000 people take this assessment. So, the – the data is now extremely meaningful. And what are some of those common struggles that are being lifted up in that assessment? What are the, like, top three most common things that are separating people emotionally, physically, spiritually?
Greg: Yeah, the three – top three areas that people struggle in are these little foxes. It’s so interesting how even our own assessment bears that out.
Greg: So, number one is they’re just unhappy about their sexual relationship. So, maybe they’re sexless. They’re not having sex. Or it’s just not as often, or something’s going on. Another one is conflict, as Erin kind of talked about. We’re just not able to really work through the problems that are there, so we just kind of sweep them under the rug.
Greg: And so, it’s just frustrating. And then communication is another one. And what they’re saying is that we’re just not talking.
Greg: Now, the problem is that they are talking, but they’re just not talking about the things that bring life to their relationship. For a lot of couples that we work with who are struggling in their communication, they’re talking a whole lot about to-do lists and tasks and who’s going to pick up the milk and, whose turn is it to pick up the kids from wherever and they get stuck in a rut that monopolizes their communication, which over time, that becomes boring. Or if I start to believe – and by the way, this happened to me. There came a moment in our marriage that I honestly thought, I don’t really enjoy talking to my wife. And I just – I wanted to be off by myself and be in the man cave and – because what was happening is that all of our communication focused around finances, who’s doing what tomorrow. It was just one big business meeting.
Erin: And the – it’s funny because we’ll ask couples as we travel and speak, you know, what percentage of time do you spend talking about, you know, business stuff? What percentage of time do you administrate your marriage? And it’s funny ’cause they’ll kind of sit back, and then they’ll go, “It’s really about 90% of our time.”
Erin: That’s where we’re spending our time. And how life-giving is that to a marriage? The thing is is we’re often not aware of it, so we don’t know that’s what we’re doing.
John: Well, go ahead and find out more about some of what we’re talking about today in the great book Reconnected: Moving from Roommates to Soulmates in Your Marriage, written by Dr. Greg Smalley and his wife, Erin. And we do have that here at Focus on the Family. Give us a call. 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Let me ask you this, again, for that person listening. And they’re, okay, am I in that roommate phase, or am I in the soul mate phase in my marriage? Let’s give some description to that roommate. You identified several characteristics that the married roommate experience is like. Give me some of those.
Greg: Yeah, so someone might feel that exhaustion to where they just don’t have anything to give. It might be a really, really busy season. And that’s what Erin and I were talking about. When we felt like roommates, it was because we were so invested in all these other things. So, we were just constantly busy, so there wasn’t any time to connect as a couple…
Jim: Okay, but let me ask you this, though. We live in a busy culture.
Jim: I mean, we’ve got the smartphones. And we’re connected 24/7 to the world. And it just feels like you’re carrying a heavy load each and every day. So, just in that area, what can you do to say, “Okay, let’s change something?”
Greg: One of the things that really stood out – a guy named Dr. John Gottman, fantastic marriage researcher, found that oftentimes throughout any given day, couples are doing something called bids for connection. It’s like this. So, recently, Erin and I were driving down the road. And we hit a stoplight. So, we’re just sitting there. And all of a sudden, I went, “Whoa, look.” And approaching was my very favorite vehicle, like, my dream vehicle. Like, if I was to have this unlimited supply of money, this is what I’d get. It’s a Ford F-150 Raptor. I love it.
John: Cannot miss those.
Greg: I want one.
Jim: That’s definitely a guy truck.
Erin: Which, yeah, means nothing to me. I’m like, “Oh, nice.”
Erin: But what Greg did, he – as he said, “Oh, look at that.” And he goes, “Hey, by the way, that was a bid for connection…”
Erin: “…That I just read all about it this morning. John Gottman talks about when we throw out these little, like, ‘hey, there’s that truck I love,’ we have a choice in how we respond to it.” So then, of course, I was like, (gasping) “Oh, my word, a Ford Raptor. It’s so exciting.”
Greg: And I’m telling you, those happen throughout the day. Erin will come home – you know, I haven’t seen her. She’ll come home. And maybe she got to go shopping for a quick second. Erin loves to bargain shop. So, every time she bargain shops, she’ll come in and instantly find – seek me out. And she’ll go – hold up an outfit, and she’ll go, “Guess how much this originally was?”
Greg: Now, I shop once a year. I hate going to the mall. It’s all done online, so when she holds up an outfit and goes, “Guess how much this cost originally?” I mean, I have a choice. That is a bid for connection. I can go, “I don’t care. Just leave me alone. I was watching the football game.”
Jim: So, coaching all us guys, what do you say? $500 (laughter).
Erin: Yeah, go high.
Greg: …Well, what I’ve learned to say – go high. So, I will say, “Like, 99 bucks?” And she’ll go, “No, not even close. It was, like, $105.” And I’m thinking, that was pretty close.
Greg: But anyway, and she’ll go, “Guess what I paid.” Now, I’ve learned that you got to go under $10 if she’s that excited. “I don’t know, like, 8 bucks?” “No, $6.99.” And we just have this tiny, little connection.
Greg: And that – over time, those little micro connections add up. And it actually creates stronger connections between us. Now, is this going to cure everything? No, it’s just one of those little tools that we’ve started using that makes such a big difference.
Erin: It’s the awareness that I’m trying to connect with you. I love, as I work with couples, just to say – you know, they’ll be complaining, “Oh, he talks about these boring things,” and on and on. And I’ll say, “But when he brings those up, what he’s really saying to you is, I want to connect with you.” And they’re like, “Really? Wow.” So, it just is…
Jim: That – that is really good insight. That may change my communication right there.
Jim: But let me – let me get some of the others because people are – again, they’re thinking, am I in that roommate phase? We’ve talked exhausted, busy. Let me just really quickly go through the list, and then we’ll come back to some of these. But exhausted, busy, pragmatic, gentle neglect, complacent, spiritually distant, conflict avoidance, sexless, uh, disengaged, unsafe and visionless. I mean, if someone’s hearing this and going, “That describes my marriage,” I mean, this is what this is for. This is for you. Um, I want to move to another story you have, Greg, that illustrates one of these points. And that is when you were a kid – I so identify with this – you took a piano lesson…
Greg: Oh, man.
Jim: …And I think it used a metronome.
Greg: Oh, it was horrible. I hated taking piano lessons. I wanted to be outside with my friends. And all I can remember – and my poor piano teacher would be horrified, but she would set this metronome, this little wooden thing that tick-tick-tick-tick back-and-forth.
Jim: It taught you beat.
Greg: Well, I thought it was hypnotizing me…
Greg: …So I would stay in my chair. But what it actually does is it teaches pace. It teaches rhythm so that you don’t have to pay attention to time.
Greg: And in life, everything is coming at us, and we need sort of this internal metronome, something that – that helps us to be able to create a rhythm and a pace so that we can stay full, so that we have things to then give our spouse. And what Erin and I have learned is that – again, a lot of things can help you kind of develop this inner metronome, this rhythm, this Godly rhythm – but what Erin and I have realized that if you pay attention to what gives you rest and then to what gives you life, if you figure out, okay, this is what truly gives me rest and what – what gives me life, what brings my heart alive and invest time and effort into those things, then I have more to give her. That’s how we kind of manage this inner rhythm that we need so that we stay full.
Erin: Yeah, so often we want to cut things out and, you know, pare the schedule down. Great, if there’s things that you can cut out. But I know in my life, there’s things – I’m in a busy season with kids and work and ministry. And so, it’s important to recognize I have the opportunity. And it’s my job to make sure that I’m full so when I come home, I don’t serve the leftovers that I – you know, what is it that brings me rest? You know, maybe it’s sleep. Maybe it’s sitting and reading. You know, whatever it is for you versus what brings me life or brings my soul alive – is it being outdoors, whatever – that then I have more to give.
Jim: Now, in that context, you’re saying how to refuel yourself.
Jim: But what we want to do today before we wrap up here – and let’s come back next time. We’ll continue the discussion ’cause there’s so much more in this great book that you’ve done. Um, but let’s end where we can give folks some examples of how to reunite themselves. So, we’ve described this roommate kind of marriage culture that we have. We’re so busy. We’ve identified these 9, 10, 11 things that separate us. What are some things, some ideas, that we can change tonight and, uh, tomorrow and as we move forward? What are just a couple things we can do that reunites us as a married couple?
Erin: I think it’s so important to recognize, Jim, that there’s an opportunity to build a stronger attachment between the two of us. We build this attachment with our kids, and we do it pretty naturally. But it’s just recognizing that there’s things specifically I can be doing to strengthen that connection. And it’s really, am I available? When Greg wants to sit and connect with me, am I open to that? Does he know I’m available to him? Am I reaching for him? Am I turning towards him, or am I leaning away and turning towards other things? So, it’s important just to recognize we’re building that strong connection…
Erin: …Between the two of us.
Jim: One of the key things, too, and I – I know many couples that have done this is – especially in the busy child-rearing season – is to carve even just 10 minutes together. And tell your kids who are running around at 5, 6, 7, 9, “Hey, you know, this is mommy and daddy time. We’re gonna just spend a few minutes together ’cause we want to love on each other, and we want to make sure you see us loving on each other. But go away…”
Jim: “…And don’t interrupt us.” And – and actually, it’s great for kids to see that because now we’re a marriage-centered home, not a kid-centered home.
Greg: It really…
Jim: And that’s important. But that – is that something that you guys have done?
Greg: We do. We told our kids that 8 o’clock was bedtime because it was now mom and dad time. And if you get up, if you’re bothering us, then we will take time from you tomorrow, and you’ll sit in time-out or whatever…
Greg: …To teach them so that they understood that. You know, I – you – you mentioned this idea of 10 minutes. And – and believe it or not, that’s actually the – researchers found that if couples spend 10 minutes a day just talking not about schedules and to-do lists and administrating their marriage, but actually talk about the inner life – like, what – how are you feeling? What’s – what are you thinking about, dreaming about? What’s creating anxiety? – things like that – the inner life. If – if I explore and pursue Erin’s inner life for 10 minutes a day, they’ve found that that makes such a huge, huge difference.
Jim: Isn’t that amazing?
Greg: Yeah, 10 minutes.
Jim: That little (laughter) time?
Erin: I know. When I heard that, I was like, “I can do that.”
Jim: (Laughter) Yeah, right.
Erin: “I can find 10 minutes.” And, you know, I asked Greg, you know, “What was the high of your day? What was the low of your day?” And just knowing that just doing that, I’m hearing about what’s going on inside of him, not about work or schedules or whatever but more about what is inside of him in his heart.
Jim: Yeah. I just love the Lord creating us in that way – that He said, “You know, I can make this so easy for you guys. You can do this. Just spend 10 minutes like this.” Greg, I want to end on a funny story you had in the book, which was – most of us guys will now want to overcompensate, right?
Jim: And you had a thing with the family camp…
Jim: …That I thought was hilarious ’cause that’s what I would do. Explain what happened.
Greg: Well, so part of what happens for people is that when we’re feeling disconnected and we’re busy and we’re investing all this time into other things, then we play so many expectations and hopes on big things like vacations and – and holiday time. So, as we were headed to a camp as a family, I had built this up to where it was…
Greg: …Gonna be this most incredible experience. And we were gonna be connected and have fun and laugh and play. And we’re gonna walk away just feeling…
Jim: The kids would say, “I love you, Father.”
Greg: …Bonded. Exactly.
Greg: “You’re the greatest parents of all time.”
Greg: And so, the very first morning – so after a restless night of sleep, we’re just walking over to the breakfast hall. And two of our kids get into this huge argument to – and the one gets so mad that she goes, “I’m done with this family.”
Greg: And she walks off.
Jim: And this is family camp.
Greg: This is the beginning…
Jim: The first day.
Erin: The first day.
Greg: …Of our connection and reconnection as a family. Well, I lost it. I started yelling to the family, “You guys make me sick, and we’re supposed to be having fun.” And by the way, we were the teachers.
Jim: And it’s – everybody’s watching.
Greg: And we couldn’t find our daughter who’s now wandered off. Well, finally, she came back to the cabin. I had everybody in the cabin. I stood up. I lectured.
Greg: I told them that – “You are gonna have fun…”
Greg: “…And we will enjoy it.”
Greg: And then I…
Erin: We’re gonna be connected.
Greg: (Laughter) Yeah, and I stormed out. I was so mad. So, Erin follows me kind of down to the little lake area…
Greg: …And she’s like, “What’s going on?” And I’m like, “It’s your children that’s the problem.”
Greg: “They’re driving me crazy.” And the more we talked, actually, what I realized through Erin’s just great questions is that I had built this up. And I had so many expectations and hope for the time. And upon realizing that, I was able to let those go.
Greg: Came back to the cabin, pulled everybody together, and I said, “Listen. My hope is that we do connect. But – but I’m not gonna worry, and I’m not gonna force this to happen.” And I think a lot of times, that’s what couples do – is they kind of – they exist between date night to date night, vacation to vacation. And it’s all that other time that they’re not using. So, thus, when they’re on the vacation, it’s built up. And those experiences can’t deliver the connection that we long for, which is really why, in the book, we’ve taken these 10 things. There’s an assessment that you can take that will pinpoint which of these 10 – maybe it’s multiple things – that you – where are you struggling? And then we give just a real easy, simple solution to each one of those 10 things. And it’s made such a difference to where now, Erin and I don’t operate between date night to date night.
Greg: We don’t operate between vacation to vacation. We’re finding these other small ways to connect that make such a big difference.
Jim: Wow. And that is so good. And we do want to come back next time, continue the discussion. But, Greg and Erin, this has been really informative. And let me tell you guys, Focus is here for you. And we want you to call us and get in touch with us and let us know where you’re hurting, where you coming up short, maybe. It’s okay. We all do. And I love Greg and Erin’s (laughter) willingness to share that. So, get in touch with us. And we’d love to put this book into your hands. And if you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send you a copy of this wonderful book, Reconnected, as our way of saying thank you for being a part of the ministry here at Focus and helping other couples.
John: And you can donate and get your copy of Reconnected when you call 800-232-6459. That’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. By the way, when you’re at the website, we mentioned that free marriage assessment. Go ahead and take that. It’s really helpful. It takes just five or 10 minutes to fill out. And it really is, uh, as Jim said, very, very, uh, insightful about where you’re at in your marriage. Again, all that is on the website. And on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team here, thanks so much for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.