Preview:
Dr. H. Norman Wright: Because when you’re traumatized, you experienced a emotional and a cognitive shattering of your brain. And part is working over here, part is working over here, but we need to bring it together. It’s like we went through an emotional concussion.
End of Preview
John Fuller: Isn’t that an interesting statement from the late Dr. Norm Wright, about the impact of trauma in our lives? The good news, of course, is we can find healing and hope of a recovery in God. And we’re gonna hear more about that today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: But John, last time we shared a very important and eye-opening conversation that we recorded with Norm just a couple of years before he passed away. Norm had been a frequent guest on this program, and in the later years of his life, he became a certified Traumatologist where he provided specialized counseling for people who were suffering from shock and grief and pain. And we wanted to share some of his incredible wisdom and insights again with you today. Now, if you missed the program last time, I want to recommend you contact us for an audio copy of that or check YouTube to review it or get the Focus on the Family app and access all the great content whenever you like.
John: Now, a lot of what Dr. Wright shared last time came from a book he wrote called, When It Feels Like the Sky Is Falling: How to Find Hope in an Uncertain World. And you can get your copy of that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And let’s go ahead now and hear part two of our conversation with Dr. Wright on today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: You’ve had so much experience helping people work through catastrophic events and natural disasters. You talked about last time, um, shooting, school shootings, things like that-
Norm: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … workplace violence, and you’ve been at it for 35 years in that particular area, in addition to marriage counseling and all your great work over decades. Um, in that context, I was fascinated by the chapter in your book where you describe how traumatic events will affect the brain. So this is more the science of trauma-
Norm: Hmm.
Jim: … if we can spend a little time there. And most of us have heard about PTSD. It’s- it’s in the news more often with the war in, uh, Iraq and Afghanistan. For the people that don’t work in this area every day, what is PTSD and why should we not be nonchalant about it?
Norm: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Maybe if we haven’t experienced it, we may not understand it and we kind of don’t give it the proper attention that it should get.
Norm: Well, PTSD, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, we seem to, uh, tie that into the service people, the ones that are over there fighting.
Jim: In combat.
Norm: In combat. But the majority of people who experience PTSD are right here in our country. They’re everyday individuals. You’re driving down the street and all of a sudden somebody runs out in front of you and you hit them. Okay, you’ve been traumatized.
Jim: Huh.
Norm: There’s a picture in your mind. There’s a picture of that person running out and it’s gonna pop out there when you least expect it.
Jim: How- how about the emotions of trauma? Y- you know, again, we touched on that last time. There’s a variety of ways people respond, but particularly the impact of emotions that we may not even realize exist in us.
Norm: Hmm.
Jim: We might see things that now are normal. We might be happy-go-lucky people, and then we go through something traumatic and we start-
Norm: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … feeling depression.
Norm: Yeah.
Jim: And it’s the first time in our lives.
Norm: And you’re gonna ask yourself, what’s wrong with me?
Jim: Right, what has changed?
Norm: Yeah.
Jim: Why am I feeling this?
Norm: And we need to counter that, what’s wrong with me, to, this is normal. This is a normal response. Part of the problem is that we don’t have words for everything that’s going on. That’s why i- in the book, there’s a ball of grief that probably has maybe 15 or 20 different emotions there. And I use this constantly. I would hand it to you and say, “Okay, which of these do you connect with?” And you’re looking and say, “Uh, oh, loss or anger.” Or this and this and this, and- and you might look up and say, “Where did you get this? Did you draw this on me?” No, this is what we all go through.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: And so I’ve had people who have been stuck in counseling until I hand them this ball of grief and I say, “Could you identify what you’re experiencing?” And then I’ll just sit back and wait. And it could be, I might sit there for five minutes while they’re just looking at it. And finally they look up and they say, “I’m experiencing this.” “Tell me about that.” You get them to talk about that. God is the creator of emotions. God is creator of us in a unique way. The Word of God talks a lot about imagination. Imagination is what goes on in our self-talk. And that’s tied in here and we need to identify that as well.
Jim: You know, Norm, so often we look at these events as negative because it’s traumatizing. Uh, yet the word itself has some interesting roots that offer us a very different perspective. Uh, I think in Chinese, the term for trauma is made up two symbols. Uh, one for danger, the other for opportunity.
Norm: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Which is really fascinating. Then our own English word is based on a Greek word, which means to decide.
Norm: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Which I would never have put that together, that-
Norm: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … trauma is to decide what is that expressing to us?
Norm: Eventually, and that’s important to mention, eventually we get to the place where there is something we can learn from the trauma. But right at the first, nothing makes sense to us. Nothing really comes together. And what’s important is that, let’s say we have a friend who’s been traumatized. This is not the time to say to them, “You’re gonna learn something out of this. You are going to be able to glorify God out of this.” Because that won’t register with you. You’re numb. Your brain took a concussion.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: It’s like you had an emotional and a cognitive concussion in your brain. And so you’re not thinking clearly. You’re basically able to, you know, make your breakfast in the morning. And that’s a big step. And that’s the way that we help people is, what little thing could you do today that would be helpful?
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: And that’s all you’ve got to do.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: And they say, “Well, this is no big deal.” But it is because you’ve been traumatized. And that’s why it’s so important that they, they read through this because I’ve had so many people say, “When I read it, I realized that’s what was going on in my life. And guess what? I discovered I was normal. I don’t need to be fixed. Eventually I will stabilize.”
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: “And it’s gonna take longer than I ever realized.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: And see, part of the problem, people want to know, how soon is this gonna get over with?
Jim: That- that’s everybody’s question, right?
Norm: Oh, yeah.
Jim: When will I get back to where I was?
Norm: Yeah. And they want to know that so that they can go on with their life. And one o- one of the things I come out with and say, um, this is probably gonna take months, maybe even years, so we can relax and realize there’s nothing wrong with us that it takes us long. This is the way God has created us, how to respond.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: And that’s really, really important.
John: Norm, that’s really important, I think, for those of us who are around somebody who has gone through a crisis or has been traumatized. I- I think it would be easy for a family member or a friend to eventually kind of tire of the processing, right? And- and this is a process that you don’t see it necessarily unfolding. I hear great encouragement from you, though, that we can offer hope to that person as they- as they deal with that.
Norm: We can offer hope. And we need to pray for patience. If we’re not the traumatized person, if it’s somebody else, we’re gonna start thinking, I’ve heard this again and again and again. When will they stop saying it? Probably they won’t stop saying it, uh, for months or maybe even years. Because even if they don’t say it around you outwardly, they’re saying it to themselves.
John: Yeah.
Norm: And they’re reinforcing it again and again. But it’s so important that we have the freedom and the opportunity to face it. And that’s why there are steps in the book that can lead a person to the place where maybe they can get help from somebody else. Maybe they can get help simply from reading a book, reading the Word of God. And, um, we can say to the person that’s in trauma, “I wish I knew what to say to you and to help you, but I don’t.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: People like that honesty.
Jim: Right.
Norm: Because most of the time they’re dealing with people that have come in and said, “You need to get on with your life. You need to do this, you need to do that.”
Jim: Why do we do that? I- I mean, it’s not-
Norm: Because we’re uncomfortable with what’s going on.
Jim: Yeah. It’s our, it’s our discomfort.
Norm: Yeah, it is.
Jim: So we want to just kind of say something and keep moving.
Norm: Yeah, yeah. “I- I don’t know what to say, so let’s get on with it.”
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: That’s part of the problem.
Jim: Better to say nothing.
Norm: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah. Norm, we’re- we’re moving into that area of becoming a survivor.
Norm: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And I’d like for people that are struggling, maybe they’re halfway through their grieving process, maybe three quarters of the way, use the adjectives that describe someone who is becoming a survivor. What does it look like?
Norm: Oh, there’s so many factors there. Um, one of the things that I like to do with individuals is to say, “Uh, you’re probably struggling with, uh, with this at this point. And you’re wondering, I don’t think I can handle this.” Well, it’s all right to say that I don’t think I can handle this. If we get to the place where we turn it around and say, “But I can learn how to handle this. I learned to do this. I can learn to do that. I will recover.” Um, you want to get to the place where you can get out the negatives, but at the same time then move towards the positive.
Jim: Right. That’s a good sign when someone is m-,
Norm: That’s a positive sign, yeah.
Jim: … moving toward the positives.
Norm: Um, being willing to ask for help. I went through, uh, open heart surgery and they gave me a whole list of things that I could do and a list of things that I couldn’t do. And being a man-
Jim: (laughs).
Norm: … I wanted to do it all.
Jim: You want to invert that list, is what you want to do being a man.
Norm: That’s right.
Jim: (laughs).
Norm: And so, uh, I had to come to the place where I told myself, it’s all right to ask my friends for help. And I needed to verbalize that with them. And they were out there saying, “Yes, because if you don’t do that, Norm, we’re gonna make you do it.” So-
Jim: Mm-hmm. Those are good friends.
Norm: They really were.
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: And they were very, very helpful. Um, we want to be responsible. We want to be, um, adaptable. What I did before, maybe it’s not gonna work now. So what can I find that’s going to work? That’s really important.
Jim: Well, in that context, Norm, of- of the loss of your wife, let’s get down to that practical example, being adaptable when your spouse is gone. How did that take shape? What did that look like to have a form of adaptability when your wife passed away?
Norm: Well, there’s two things about it. One was we had four years of walking through brain cancer.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: And we did a lot of, uh, grieving in advance.
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: Uh, anticipatory grieving. And so that when she died, it was a little different because so much of the grieving was there. But I had to learn to live without. What happens when you have a spouse who dies, you didn’t lose just a spouse. You l- lost somebody who’s maybe the cook, who was-
Jim: Your best friend.
Norm: Best friend, uh, your lover, uh, the errand runner and whatnot. W- I ask people to make me a list of all the other losses that they experienced after their spouse died. And, um, we came up with about 40.
Jim: Wow.
Norm: And if you identify these ahead of time, you won’t get ambushed by them so much. I remember about three months after, uh, Joyce died, I got a letter in the mail that said, H. Norman Wright – Widower.
Jim: Oh.
Norm: And I bristled. How dare they call me that and label me that? It’s okay for me to say that, but why put that label on me- on there at that time?
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: But, um, I had to learn to live without. When you have a loss of a loved one, they’re no longer there. There’s a hole in your life. And, um, you’re not gonna have people respond to you in the same way. For example, couple groups. I couldn’t go to a couple groups. I was not a couple.
Jim: You felt like an outsider, I’m sure.
Norm: Yeah, you do.
Jim: You didn’t fit.
Norm: And, um, uh, eventually, and I have to emphasize this word because people who are listening want answers now. They want the fixing to occur now, but eventually you’ll get to the place where you’re able to respond in a way like you used to.
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: But it will take you, I can’t tell you how long that’s gonna take.
Jim: Right. Well, and in fact, you- you mentioned the idea of moving to a new dream.
Norm: Yeah.
Jim: And- and what is a new dream? What is that like? I mean, again, maybe in the context of the loss of your wife.
Norm: I have no idea what that new dream is like. Um…
Jim: But- but hoping for one, is that what you’re saying?
Norm: Hoping for one is there. And, uh, praying. God lead me in a new way. I don’t know where it is.
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: I don’t know where it’s going, but I need your leading because I don’t have that ability.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: And sometimes there’s, uh, disappointments that turn around. For example, I’ve taught at Biola for many years, uh, which meant that any of my dependents could go to school there free. And so when my daughter hit, uh, college, I’m saying yes. And so she went to college for a year and then came in one day and said, “Daddy, um, I don’t think college is for me.”
Jim: Oh.
Norm: And boom, the disappointments.
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Norm: She’s, “I want to go to cosmetology school. I want to learn this. Uh, I want to learn how to do nails.” And I’m sitting there thinking, and we’re talking and everything. Well, she went on and, um, fast-forward maybe three, four years later, here is my daughter traveling internationally because she is the top nail artist, not just in the nation, but all over the world. She went to Japan, she went to-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: … Germany. She taught, uh, people how to do nails. Uh, she had books out. Uh, she had articles in magazines. And here’s this daughter that didn’t go to college.
Jim: Right.
Norm: But look at how God used her. And there was a time, though, when she went off in a different direction and, uh, was involved with some cocaine, with drinking and whatnot, and then turned her life around. And then, uh, as she sat there in the, um, in the nail salon, she’d be doing somebody’s nails and she’d be talking to them. And then, uh, she’d look at them and say, “How long have you been using?” “What?” “Yeah, how long have you been using drugs?” “Well, why did you say that?” “Oh, because of this, this, this, this. I- I have a therapist that I could send you to because you’re using it.”
Jim: Yeah. So she turned it into a ministry.
Norm: Oh. She turned it into a, that was my daughter. You’ve heard about people who think outside the box. She didn’t know where the box was. (laughs).
Jim: But- but this point you’re making is really critical. And some may have missed it, but being the father of this daughter, you had a different dream.
Norm: I did.
Jim: And then God had a different dream too. (laughs)
Norm: He had a dream that-
Jim: He had a dream for your daughter.
Norm: I had to get in line with.
Jim: Yes.
Norm: Because she had an ability that very few people ever had. And I praised God for it. And we went through difficult times. We went through wonderful times. But the last thing I remember was her husband calling me one morning saying, “Sheryl died during the night.”
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: And it was like, I’m not hearing this. That isn’t registering. He had to repeat it.
Jim: Yeah. Because you don’t want to believe what you’re hearing.
Norm: Especially being 53.
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: Yeah.
Jim: Unexpected.
Norm: Unexpected. And I’m still working through the grief. It’s been four years now at this particular time, but I’m still working through it. And it’s gonna take me a long time because it was a sudden shock. It was not expected. It was out of the blue. And, um, I’m learning that, um, God is working through this. And now I have a new relationship with a granddaughter.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: And so it’s a whole new world at my age to, uh, to be helping somebody at that age too, so.
Jim: Yeah. Young granddaughter, your daughter’s daughter.
John: You’re listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, and today we’re featuring a conversation with late Dr. Norm Wright. He wrote a powerful book about navigating, uh, grief and trauma. And the title is, When It Feels Like the Sky Is Falling: How to Find Hope in an Uncertain World. Get a copy of that book from us when you call 800, the letter, A, and the word, FAMILY. Or you can stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast for details. And now the conclusion of the conversation with Dr. Wright on today’s Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim: Dr. Wright, um, people do not like talking about suffering, especially in the Western culture. We run from suffering. We create gadgets that keep us from suffering. And, uh, you know, it’s not what we want to talk about. But the fact is, the Bible addresses that topic a lot. Why is it important for people to recognize and accept that hardship and suffering are really part of everyday life? That even becoming a Christian does not eliminate hardship and suffering. In fact, it may bring it on in certainly other parts of the world where there’s Christian persecution. You embrace the faith, you may lose your life. But why as a human being do we have this dichotomy, this kind of, I don’t want to talk about or experience suffering, but the scripture’s saying life is about suffering.
Norm: Mm-hmm. It’s not just suffering we’re reacting to. We don’t like change, especially if the change is outside of us. We like to be in charge of the change. And so e- even little changes, that’s disruptive. I don’t like that. Let me get back to the life that I had.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: And so you look at the scripture, in the scripture, the Bible is a book about grief. The Bible is a book about suffering. That’s life. And so instead of running from it, we want to embrace it. We want to reach out and bring it to us and say, okay, this is something that’s disrupting my life, but that’s okay. And we need to come to that place where we can first of all say, that’s okay, even though I don’t feel it. Eventually the feeling is gonna catch up. And then I’ll realize I can learn through this. This can be used for the Kingdom’s glory. And um, if we take that attitude, we feel like we’re more in charge again.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: And that’s really important that, uh, I’m going to embrace this and see what I can learn through this. Just like, um, with my son. Uh, he died at the age of 22, but he was only 18 months old mentally.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: Because he was profoundly retarded.
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: I am indebted to my son for making me fully human.
Jim: Huh. Explain that. If someone’s not catching it, how did he do that?
Norm: My son really couldn’t talk. He couldn’t feed himself. He couldn’t, uh, he wasn’t potty-trained. He would walk around the house for a long time. He might giggle a little bit. He might do different things, but, um, Matthew was not like you and I.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: But, um, what he did was he caused me to look inside of myself because I was raised like most men. I did not understand feelings. I did not have a feeling vocabulary. Well, when Matthew came into my life-
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: He caused me to look deep within and to experience feelings that I’d never felt before. And he caused me to come up with a feeling vocabulary. And so I could be able to talk with other individuals. I could help men who did not have a feeling vocabulary and say, this is what happened, and this is what happened, and here’s what this word means. When Matthew came into my life, I didn’t talk about feelings. I couldn’t cry. I couldn’t cry in front of my wife, Joyce. Until one day something happened on television and I saw it from a different perspective. And I got up off of the couch, went into the kitchen, and I wept. I couldn’t even cry in front of my wife, but she didn’t let me get away from that. She came into the kitchen and just held me. And I learned to cry in front of her. Now I cry at the drop of a hat.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: And I never apologize for crying. And, um, I use a lot of feeling words and I teach a lot of men how to use a new vocabulary so they can connect better with the people in their life. And so that’s what my son did for me. And, um, I’ll never forget the day the hospital called and said a very generic phrase, “You need to be here immediately.”
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: That’s all they said. And I knew what it meant was my son was dying.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: And he did. And when Matthew died, it was a very different experience. We walked into the room, he had eight tubes in him.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: He had a ventilator. And the doctor said, “In the next few minutes, the monitors of his blood pressure, heart rate, everything will diminish.”
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: And I stood there and I watched the monitors start-
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: … to change. The most unbelievable sense of loss coupled, coupled with a sense of joy. And that joy was there because my wife turned to the doctor and said, “Oh, you mean, you mean today he’s going to be with Jesus?”
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: And the doctor smiled and said, “Yes, this is that day.”
Jim: Hmm. He’s free. Yeah. Norm, right at the end here, uh, I think this is a critical last question. Um, explain if you can, why silence about past experiences can be so deadly, so devastating to us. Not only to us, but to those we care about, our family and friends. When we remain silent, when we suffer in silence.
Norm: I don’t think that we were called to live life in isolation. And that’s what happens when we have silence. And I have to reframe the word, silence, because many times we think people are being silent. The only silence is sharing with others because they are talking to themselves again and again.
Jim: In probably a raging conversation inside.
Norm: Oh, my goodness.
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: It goes on and on. And so if we can share that in the presence of another person and realize that as I’m sharing this personal experience in my life, I am being accepted for who I am and what is going on in my life. And they just sit there and they listen to me. But basically the way they’re ministering to me is through their presence.
Jim: Yes.
Norm: The way you help other people is by your presence. Uh, three months after Joyce died, I went in to, uh, get some blood work done and the PA said, “Dr. So-and-so will be in in a minute.” And I’m thinking, why is he coming in? I don’t have an appointment. And he opened the door, took one look at me, and I lost it. I just wept. And he came in and sat down, looked at the floor for two minutes until I composed myself. And then he started chatting with me and we talked together and we laughed together.
Jim: Huh.
Norm: And we cried together. And 15 minutes later, he got up and shook my hand, walked out. And I thought, this busy doctor who sees 50 people a day, who has 15 on his staff, gave me, he gave 15 minutes of his life, just his presence. He didn’t do anything.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Norm: He said, “Norm,” basically, “I’m here. Tell me your story.”
Jim: Yeah.
Norm: And there’s so many people out there who are listening that need to tell their story.
Jim: Hmm.
Norm: Write it out. Find somebody who’s safe. Tell them what you need. It’s okay to say, “I don’t want you to talk, I don’t want you to reflect, just be there. Hold my hand, listen. And that’s all I need. And thank you.”
Jim: Well, that’s beautifully said. Norm, I’m thinking of Jesus. Uh, He’s called the great physician.
Norm: Mm-hmm.
Jim: He’s the doctor of our soul and like a broken arm, when we go through, uh, tragedy and grief, something is lost, something is broken.
Norm: Hmm.
Jim: And the Lord comes along and restores-
Norm: Hm-mmm.
Jim: … as a great healer. And that is a wonderful place to end today. Thank you for, uh, the way you have expressed your experiences, how you have helped people, and how you have written this wonderful book, When It Feels Like the Sky Is Falling: How to Find Hope in an Uncertain World. So many people feel like that.
John: And that’s how we concluded our great conversation with the late Dr. Norm Wright a few years back. We so appreciated the incredible insights he shared about navigating difficult seasons in life. And certainly he was very transparent about his own struggles. Now, if you or a member of your family is dealing with a difficult, uh, grief or trauma, Focus on the Family is here for you. We want to help. Uh, contact us about speaking with one of our caring Christian counselors. We’d be happy to send a copy of Dr. Wright’s book when you make a donation of any amount to support the ministry, either a one-time gift or an ongoing monthly pledge. And if you can’t afford that right now, contact us anyway. And, uh, I’m sure our generous donor community will help, uh, cover the costs so you can get that resource. Our number is 800, the letter, A, and the word, FAMILY. You can also learn more at our website and donate there, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Coming up tomorrow, a very insightful conversation with Dr. Juli Slattery about godly sexuality.
Dr. Juli Slattery: What I’ve learned in the last 10 years of ministering on sexual issues is that most of us have the wrong picture of what God designed sex to be, and we don’t even realize it.
John: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.