Focus on the Family Broadcast

Mark Gregston: Well, a legacy is not what you leave in their bank account. Our legacy is what you deposit it in, in their hearts. And so, the only way to do that is through a relationship. I want kids to know, I want anybody around me to know, I want my grandkids to know, “There’s nothing you can do to make me love you more, and there’s nothing you can do to make me love you less.”

John Fuller: Mark Gregston joins us today on Focus on the Family, with some great advice for grandparents. Thanks for joining us. Your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, neither one of us are grandparents. That’s, hopefully, in our future. We certainly-

John: I hope so, yes.

Jim: … have kids that, uh, should be able to (laughs) get married and have children. I’m looking forward to that.

John: Me too.

Jim: And, uh, you know, uh, uh, I have friends that have arrived at that stage. It’s gotta be that same or similar feeling when you become a first-time parent. You’re overwhelmed by what’s ahead and, “What’s my role?” and, “What do I need to do?”

John: Hmm.

Jim: And it is a great idea to start thinking about what kind of grandparent you want to be if you haven’t-

John: Hmm.

Jim: … become one yet. Or if you are one with little ones, how do you wanna help shape them? What are your adult children going to allow you to do?

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, there’s a lot of dynamics when it comes to grandparenting. Probably the best line that I’ve heard about grandparents is, “Grandparents and grandchildren share the same enemy.”

John: Yeah.

Jim: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Jim: The adult, the adult children (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Mark: (laughs).

Jim: So I love that concept.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Of course, it’s tongue in cheek, so we don’t need to, uh, you know, be too concerned about that. But I’m looking forward to today’s program. Grandparenting Teens is the book, Leaving a Legacy of Hope. And I love that concept of, uh, being a grandparent and leaving a legacy of hope.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Sounds like what Jesus would want us to do.

John: Yeah, that’s so aspirational and inspirational. And our guest is a seasoned grandparent. He has four grandchildren. Uh-

Jim: Seasoned. I like that.

John: Yeah. Well, Mark-

Jim: (laughs).

John: … Gregston and his wife-

Jim: (laughs).

John: … Jan, uh, have two children, both married, and four grandchildren. And Mark is the founder of Heartlight Ministries, a Christian boarding school and residential counseling center for struggling teens. Uh, he speaks a lot about kids, uh, in general-

Jim: Hmm.

John: … and teens, specifically. In fact, uh, Mark has an acclaimed radio program called Parenting Today’s Teens. Uh, we’ve got details about him and about that book, Grandparenting Teens. You’ll find all the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Mark, welcome to Focus.

Mark: Well, it’s good to be here.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: It’s good to be here with you guys. I, I can’t believe you don’t have grandkids because-

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: ‘Cause you guys look-

Jim: ‘Cause I look so old?

John: (laughs).

Mark: … so much older than me, you know?

Jim: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Mark: (laughs).

Jim: And by the way, for those that are listening, uh, by radio, your mustache is awesome.

John: Yeah.

Mark: Well, thank you.

Jim: (laughs). You look like a extra in a cowboy movie.

Mark: Well, I… Yeah. Well, I-

Jim: Have you ever done that?

Mark: I live in Texas. I’ve, I’ve done some little things like that. And, and sponsored by a boot company and-

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: … you know, all this stuff. But, but… And have too many horses. And maybe we can give-

Jim: Well, that’s great.

Mark: Maybe we can give some away on this broadcast.

Jim: I, I love it.

John: Horses?

Jim: I love it.

Mark: Yeah.

John: Oh, we’ll hear from people-

Jim: Yeah (laughs).

Mark: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Jim: “I’ll take a horse.”

John: I think he’s joking.

Mark: There you go.

John: Yeah.

Jim: Mark, let’s start with that idea of hope. I… You know, when I look at grandparents, um, a- all through my life, there tends be, like, two kinds, the-

Mark: Hmm.

Jim: … fun kind and then the kind of mean kind.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: How do you ensure that you end up being the fun grandparent, a good grandparent and not one-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … that’s upset with the world all the time?

Mark: Yeah, what a great question. You know, I… When I became a grandparent, I was 45. And I was scared to death. I even told my daughter. I go, “Look, I, I don’t do well with these little kids. I don’t do well with other ki-… I… When they become teens, I think I’ll do okay.” And that’s how I kinda went into it. I was scared to death.

Jim: Right.

Mark: ‘Cause I had no idea. And then I was there, next to the door, when my granddaughter was born 23 years ago, and I heard her cry.

Jim: Hmm.

Mark: And it was almost like my heart opened just, just … like that.

Jim: Wow.

Mark: Just something changed. And I’ve never experienced that before. And, I mean, it’s been something quite different. And Tim Kimmel always says, you know, “Grandparenting, it’s a mulligan. It’s a-

Jim: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Mark: “… do-over. You get to, you get to make up for all those mistakes-

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: “… that you’ve made.” And I think what happens is that some grandparents feel like a grandchild is a burden, “Well, I’ve gotta do it again. I’ve gotta do this all… You know, I’ve gotta go through the same thing I went through with my kids.” And then there’s the other ones that look at it as a mulligan, as a chance to redeem the time that maybe they missed with their own kids.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: And I think that’s the difference between the two.

Jim: Yeah. And Jean and I have often said, “It’d be wonderful to parent again.”

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: You know, you go through it the first time, you make mistakes, you’re a little too tough on them in certain situations.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: You wish you would’ve been maybe a little, uh, lighter-hearted about something. Or something, you know, just-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … something you didn’t do correctly. And I-

Mark: Well, you begin-

Jim: I think most parents have that experience (laughs).

Mark: Yeah, you begin to learn what’s important and what’s not.

Jim: Right.

Mark: I mean, and, and, and matters and what doesn’t matter and what’s… You know, plus, as a grandparent, you don’t have to deal with all the rules and, and everything. I mean, grandparenting is not just being a parent on steroids.

Jim: Right.

Mark: It is a different, a completely different role that gives the opportunity for… To influence a child in a completely different way than a parent does.

John: Yeah.

Jim: And I wanna get into the boundaries that we’ll need to set or talk about setting when it’s a grandparent-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … and an adult child because you certainly can’t directly parent that grandchild. You have to do it-

Mark: Right.

Jim: … with permission.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Right? The things that you need to do. But let’s go back a little bit. I-in the book, you talked about not having a strong relationship with your own grandparents-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … which gave you some, um, doubts about being a grandparent when that granddaughter was born you were just talking about.

Mark: Yeah, yeah.

Jim: The lack of experience of having, uh, engaged grandparents, let me say it that way, why did that, why did that freak you out a little bit-

Mark: Well, bec-

Jim: … when you were becoming a grandparent?

Mark: Right. I didn’t enjoy my grandparents. And here I am, 45, becoming one. And, and, you know, people are grandparents during their 40s and 50s and 60s. And I didn’t see that. I saw nothing but oldness. I saw nothing but crankiness and difficulty and hardship. And I thought, “I don’t wanna be like that.”

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: I mean, “I don’t want to be like that.” And it was a choice. And I just said, “I’m gonna be involved in the lives of my grandkids.” And so that’s how it started.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: That’s how it started.

Jim: Now, this book is aimed at grandparents of teenagers specifically-

Mark: Right.

Jim: … which I really appreciate because, as you said, when they’re first born and they take your breath away, you get to hold them and cuddle them-

Mark: (laughs).

Jim: … and everything is golden, and it’s wonderful and-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … how often can you have them over at the house? And sometimes that can be maybe a little too much (laughs).

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: I have some friends that-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … uh, their adult children rely on their babysitting skills a little too much perhaps. But the point of it, uh, you kinda… moved through that period. And you have your four grandkids. What was significantly different when they became teenagers? Why was that step-up time for you as grandpa?

Mark: Well, I think it’s the most important time, quite honestly, that a grandparent’s gotta be involved. And, and, and we’ve all said this. We look at teens, and we say, “I, I wouldn’t wanna grow up in that culture.” And I wouldn’t. But our … Our grandkids have to. And the tendency is that they are easy to take care of when they’re little and small and cute. They run to us. They come to us. We can do no wrong during those early years.

And then a switch is turned when they get into middle school. Social networking begins to happen. Their social circles begin to expand. And if grandparents aren’t intentional about saying, “How am I going to maintain this relationship?” then they will be the first ones that are cast out and pushed out of the circle and will no longer have an influence. And I think that’s when grandparents are needed the most. That is the time that our, our teen grandchildren need the wisdom. They need a little bit of gray hair. They need a little bit-

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: Well, uh, they do. They need that more than informa-… And they need somebody outside of a parent that affirms them-

Jim: Right. So true.

Mark: … and encourages them…

Jim: That’s so true.

Mark: …and, and spends time with them and lets them know they’re valued, but provides that places of rest that they can go to and say, “You know, I love being with Mamaw and Papa. I…” whatever you call them. That it’s a-

Jim: Right. It’s a place they wanna go.

Mark: That’s right.

Jim: Yeah, I love that ki-, that kind of construct.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: You want your grandkids to want to be over there.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, let me ask you this before we get into more of that dynamic between grandparent and grandchild. And we’re gonna… you know, you gave some great examples of things you need to remember to build the relationship and not tear it down. And, you know, we, as human beings, so easily can be critical. We’ll get to that. But talk about resetting the relationship between your adult children and you in their role as the parent and your role as the grandparent ’cause that… I would say here, folks, on the Family, we get a lot of-

Mark: Hmm.

Jim: … inquiry from listeners who are struggling either as the grandparent who feel shut out of certain decision-making-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … or discipline issues with the kids, grandkids, or, like, they feel like they gotta engage because the, the kids aren’t really raising the grandkids the way they should.

Mark: Right.

Jim: So, uh, how do you first set that relationship with your adult children?

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: And what are some of the things you gotta talk about? How does your attitude have to change from parenting-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … to grandparenting?

Mark: Yeah. What a great question. You know, I, uh, I do this, uh, and I encourage people to do this. I support my kids. No matter what, I support them. I’m not gonna get involved in the discipline. I’m not gonna get involved in telling them where things are wrong. I’m not gonna tell them that they are doing things wrong.

Jim: So that builds trust with your adult children.

Mark: It really does.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: That’s right. And the only way that I’m gonna influence my kids during that time is to back off a little bit and let them come to me rather than forcing what I think needs to be done. Now, if there’s something really wrong going on, yes, I’m gonna intervene as a grandparent. Anybody would. But, I mean, as a point of raising kids and involved in all these things, not at all. And that’s the beauty of it. I mean, I know how to parent well, but I, I have learned how to grandparent.

Jim: Huh.

Mark: And part of that is keeping my nose where it belongs. And it doesn’t belong in, in them having to deal with having me have to deal with all the issues that a parent has to deal with. That’s why grandparents become that, that golden place to go to.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: Because it’s two different places. It’s not the same. I don’t… I, I, I will support my kids in everything.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: Uh, I will always-

Jim: I like that.

Mark: … be backing them.

Jim: In that context, is it wise to sit and talk with your children, your adult children about, “What we’re gonna experience together” and, “I wanna make sure I understand what you would like me to do as the grandparent,” and get that kinda input? Is that a good thing-

Mark: Yeah, I-

Jim: … to do or is-

Mark: I never did.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: Right? I never did. I just said, “You parent them, and I’ll, I’ll have fun with them.”

Jim: Well, no-

Mark: You know?

Jim: … but that’s laying it out, though.

John: (laughs).

Mark: Yeah, it is.

Jim: I mean, even that is laying that out a little bit.

Mark: Yeah. You know, my daughter says, “It’s almost like you like them more than us.”

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: And I go, “Well, I do.”

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: You know? And, and, I mean, and I, I want that to be their… I want my grandkids to know that they are so special in my life-

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: … that I’m gonna be very intentional about moving toward them and doing whatever I need to… to maintain that relationship. And so, in the process of that, I’m really loving my kids by loving my grandkids.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: And so, I stay… I just stay out of all the other. Now, are there times that I think I could do better? Are there times that I feel like I have wisdom that would be a lot better than what… Absolutely. But, but I’ve gotta let them be who they’re supposed to be in the lives of their kids, and they’re letting me be who I can be in the lives of their kids.

Jim: Uh, getting to the relationship between the grandparent and the grandchild, you shared two ways to show love and connect with your grandchild. What are those two ways?

Mark: Well, I, I mean, I think it’s learning that there’s far more than just a few love languages out there.

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: You know, I mean, there’s hundreds of love languages. And I think it’s letting the child know that, “I’ve got you backed all the time.”

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: You know, one of my love languages is that I wanna know that, that I’m gonna be supported by those people I’ve been loyal to. And the other thing is I wanna be invited.

Jim: What does loyalty as a grandparent toward a grandchild look like?

Mark: Well, for somebody just to say, “Well, Grandpa would never say that.”

Jim: Hmm.

Mark: “Papa would never say that.”

Jim: ‘Cause you never do.

Mark: That’s right.

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: And, and when somebody says something, that they would say, “No, that’s not true.” There’s no greater way. Even for my, my wife and I, there’s no greater, uh, way that I feel loved than when she says, “That’s not true about Mark.” That she stood up for me. And perhaps that’s because I don’t feel like I’ve ever been stood up for-

Jim: Hmm.

Mark: … you know, in my life by parents or grandparents. But, I mean, there’s something about that that that’s one of my languages. And the other is I just wanna be invited. So I invite my grandkids to everything.

Jim: To participate.

Mark: That’s right. “Come to be a part. Let’s go to this concert. Let’s, let’s go on a trip together. What do YOU wanna do? Where do YOU wanna go? How can we spend time together?” And whatever that is, we’re gonna do it.

Jim: See, I think that I, I would look forward to that, like, taking two weeks in the summer and telling-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … Trent and Troy, you know, “Send the kids our way, and we’ll take them for a couple of weeks, three weeks, whatever and spend time with them. It gives you a break too.”

Mark: Well, it does. And I, I tell my daughter, and she… She goes, “Well, can we come?” I go, “No.”

Jim: (laughs). Right.

John: (laughs).

Mark: “Just, just-

John: Yeah (laughs).

Mark: “… just give me the kids. That’s all I want.”

Jim: You know, one example of that, Steve Menefee, who’s a mentor of mine-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … a business guy, retired now, but he used to… He had a, a farm, I think in Connecticut. And he would create Grandma and Grandpa’s Farm Summer…

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … and have all the gr-… I think… I don’t remember the number, but a number of the grandkids would come and just spend, you know, a month with them. And I thought that was awesome. They’d fish and hike and do fun things and crafts. And they had it all planned like a summer excursion.

John: Hmm.

Mark: Yeah. Well, how-

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: … how special is that?

Jim: Yeah. Oh-

Mark: That, that a kid-

Jim: … and they’re gonna remember that forever.

Mark: That a kid would go, “That’s what I remember.”

John: Yeah.

Mark: And really, what we’re talking about in leaving a legacy is that, you know, when, when Paul said to the Corinthians, “Remember how I was with you,” I mean, there is something about that that I want my grandkids to remember how we were together.

Jim: Hmm.

Mark: That’s what I want more than anything.

Jim: I like it.

John: Mark Gregston is our guest today on Focus on the Family. And, uh, he has written a terrific book, Grandparenting Teens: Leaving a Legacy of Hope. We’re just really, uh, touching the surface here. There’s so much good content. Uh, get a copy of the book from us here at the ministry. We have details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Mark, let me ask you. You talk about the importance of storytelling as a grandparent.

Mark: Hmm.

Jim: I love that idea.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: I, I’m trying to envision that, what that would look like for me. I mean, we did that as parents. We’d sit around the table, and we had two games that we would play.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, from time to time. We didn’t do it every night.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: It wasn’t expected. But we’d do a sentence structure game-

Mark: Right.

Jim: This sounds funny. Where each person going around the table could do one word toward a sentence.

Mark: Right.

Jim: And then we did it by paragraph in a storytelling way.

Mark: Right.

Jim: Like, you take-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … a paragraph, then I gotta-

John: Oh, I get it.

Jim: … build on it with another-

Mark: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: … paragraph. And the kids loved it ’cause it got goofy. It was funny. I mean, we ended up with Martians (laughs) and all kinds of things and-

Mark: Wow.

Jim: … all the fun-

Mark: Wow.

Jim: … things that little boys think about.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: But speak to the power of storytelling as a grandparent. How do you, how do you develop that art if that’s not a skill you possess?

Mark: Well, I think at some point, people begin to realize that they really have more wisdom than they actually know.

Jim: Ha.

Mark: That you get to a point in life, and you go, “I have learned some things. God has been teaching me things, but there hasn’t been the point of that.” I think anybody can write a book, quite honestly. If you spent time enough figuring out what you’ve learned throughout life because the wisdom that you’ve gathered has come from observation and reflection and experience.

And it’s those things in your life that you go, “Okay, I’m learning the good things in life, the right things in life. And I’ve learned them through stories that are funny and sometimes tragically funny that, uh, they weren’t funny at the time, but it sure is funny now” kind of thing. And you reflect on those things. And it’s just saying, “How do I put that into a parable? How do I put it into something that a child can understand?” And I think that becomes important.

But the second part of that that I think is key, it’s talking about experiences that you have together. You know, if wisdom is gathered by the experiences that I have in life, then I wanna have experiences with my grandchild. I wanna do things with them so that… Whether it be fishing or riding a horse or going to a concert or going on vacation or inviting them over or watching special movies or having a dinner night or whatever that is, I want them to look back at that time and for them to start telling stories, “I remember when Papa did this. I remember when Papa got thrown off a horse. I remember when-

Jim: Yeah (laughs).

Mark: “… this happened and this happened and this happened.” I think you, you’ve got to create the environment that stories can be told so we’re not playing games, if you will, to engage with one another, that there’s gotta be a way, there’s gotta be a way to engage and tell those things that have happened in our life and spend time looking at those.

John: Yeah, I like it. That’s, uh… It’s keeping the oral tradition alive-

Mark: Absolutely.

John: … for the family. Yeah.

Jim: Absolutely. The, uh, you know, just the idea of humor in the family is so critical. But that can be tough for some people because-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … you know, they feel maybe that it shows some form of disrespect or something like that. You, in fact, had an encounter. I think you were invited over to a, a family who wanted you to observe and give them some feedback. What happened?

Mark: (laughs).

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: Well, the feedback wasn’t too good. I, you know, I… They wondered why their-

Jim: They get points for having you come over and do that. I mean-

Mark: That’s right.

Jim: … that’s a pretty-

John: Yeah. Those are hard to learn. Yeah.

Jim: That’s a, you know, “Come over and tell us what we’re doing wrong” kind of statement.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: That’s really brave of them. So I give them credit for that.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: But then you let them have it.

Mark: Well, I-

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: I’m not so sure they wanted to hear what I had to say.

Jim: Okay. All right.

Mark: You know, and I, quite honestly, I think it was one daughter that had gotten involved in the, in the life of some young man. And the son was smoking pot or something.

Jim: Okay.

Mark: And I said, “You know, if I grew up in this house, I think I’d be doing the same thing.”

Jim: Wow.

Mark: “You guys are boring. You don’t do anything. You’re always concerned about behavior. You’re more concerned about the condition of their room than you are the condition of their heart. You don’t listen. You don’t laugh. You don’t… Uh, there’s no-

Jim: Well, in fact, they were forbidden to laugh at the dinner table, right?

Mark: That you couldn’t laugh.

Jim: That’s terrible.

Mark: And you’d get in trouble if you laughed at the dinner table.

John: Hmm.

Mark: And so I laughed at that when they told me ’cause… And we were eating dinner, and it was almost like that I had just violated some great thing that I wasn’t supposed to violate. But it really was that you just don’t do those things. And I go, “You got to lighten up if you’re ever-

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: “… gonna speak to the more difficult issues that are going on in the life of a teen.” It’s so different. It’s so different than 15 years ago.

Jim: You know, Mark, let me-

John: Hmm.

Jim: Let’s dig into this a little bit because there’s got to be some parents and certainly some grandparents that are listening, and I think it applies to both groups, that importance where you, where you’re doing the very things you just talked about, being more concerned about behavior than the heart.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I, I wanna give them the benefit of the doubt. They were probably raised in a very similar-

Mark: Absolutely.

Jim: … situation-

Mark: Absolutely.

Jim: … so these are learned behaviors.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: This is how their mom and dad raised them. How do you counsel somebody when… You know, someone listening right now, going, “Wow. It sounds a lot like our dinner table.”

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: “That sounds a lot like the way we go about parenting them.”

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: How do you coach them to get a grasp on that and the importance of it? Because I… What I have found is when you have that attitude, uh, it’s a judgmental attitude.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: Especially with your kids. And then, into the teens years, you will drive them to the very behavior that you’re wanting them to avoid.

Mark: Right.

Jim: Like you said-

Mark: Right.

Jim: … I’d be doing those things, too, to escape. So how as the adult do you get a hold of that and understand that and talk about it with your kids that, “I haven’t done this well-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: “I’ve gotta change, and I’m so sorry that I put this burden on you”?

Mark: Well, that’s the first step. But I think you have to realize that somewhere. I mean, I live with 60 high school kids. I mean-

Jim: (laughs). That, that’s crazy.

Mark: It is crazy.

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: But, but I have, I have for, you know, almost 40-some years. And, and-

Jim: Well, describe that, though, so people get it. So this is-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … where you’re helping these-

Mark: That’s right. We have a-

Jim: … troubled kids-

Mark: … residential counseling center, where kids-

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: … come and live with us for a year at a time. They’re great kids. They’re wonderful kids. But they’re making choices, or something traumatic has happened in their family.

Jim: And you’re saying there’s reasons that they make those choices.

Mark: That’s right. And-

Jim: And that’s what you gotta look at.

Mark: That’s right. And they’re spinning out of control. I mean, behavior is the visible expression of the invisible issues.

John: Hmm.

Mark: So I can control behavior all I want, but I wanna get to the heart of the issue. And I find that, that over the years, I’ve learned that there’s some tactics that just don’t work with parenting, and that is when we demand perfection.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: It’s when we exert this overwhelming authority. And when we’re judgmental. And that is very difficult in trying to engage kids, talking about subjects that, that they are dealing with in the world and culture they live in to not be those things. Because I want good things, I really want them to listen to me well, and I have a tendency to become judgmental because I think people are doing some things wrong. But I’ve gotta come across in a way that’s more about the relationship and their heart than it is about their behavior and performance.

Jim: Which sounds a lot like Jesus.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: It’s exactly (laughs)… Think of Jesus encountering these people that were just behaving so poorly.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: And he modeled that so well to say, “I care about you. I love you.” And as a grandparent, ah, how refreshing that is for a teen grandchild to hear that. Let’s end where we started this-

Mark: Hmm.

Jim: … in your subtitle, Leaving a Legacy of Hope, because you are kind of filling in what gives a teenager hope.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: You know, “That you believe in me,. That you’re concerned for me. That you trust me. That…” you know, all those things that are built up in that grandparenting of a teen relationship.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: Uh, just elaborate on that idea of a legacy of hope and how you can set the foundation to make it happen.

Mark: Well, a legacy is not what you leave in their bank account. A legacy is what you deposit it in, in their hearts. And so, the only way to do that is through a relationship. I want kids to know, I want anybody around me to know, I want my grandkids to know, “There’s nothing you can do to make me love you more, and there’s nothing you can do to make me love you less.” Now, when I say that, I say “nothing.”

Jim: Hmm.

Mark: No matter what they come and tell me. And there’s issues out there right now that kids are making choices that are poor and awful and rotten and everything. But I wanna know, above anything else, “I love you, and I love you dearly.” Because I wanna touch their heart. I wanna know, “I’m there for you. I will always be there for you. And nothing will get in between our relationship.”

So I don’t let them take advantage of me. I don’t let them run me. But I do let them know that I can still love them and have a strong disagreement with maybe how they’re living or the choices they’re making, but I still love them. Because if I miss the opportunity, and, and they don’t feel love from me, then I will never have the opportunity to speak wisdom into their life and walk alongside them and share the truth that I know to be true, that I’ve found through either, you know, when I was in ninth grade being the Oklahoma Bible Quiz Champ or-

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: … or learning through, you know, all the years of study or what I’ve gathered through Scripture. I’ll never have the opportunity to share that if I am more concerned about the behavior than I am about their heart.

Jim: You know, when you look at the church broadly… Um, let me ask you this, Mark. Um, you know, we try to project perfection-

Mark: Hmm.

Jim: … in our families, in our behavior, no matter the age. Certainly, as parents, we want our kids to behave. We don’t wanna have that out-of-control grocery store experience-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … especially as a Christian family.

Mark: (laughs).

Jim: You know, “If God’s real, why are my kids so out of control?”

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: There’s a title for a book.

John: Oh.

Jim: But, um, the point of that, what I’m trying to say is that vulnerability… I have found that with my own boys when I share with them where I bullied as a teenager, where I wasn’t thinking straight, where I didn’t do the right thing.

Mark: Hmm.

Jim: They actually draw closer.

Mark: Absolutely.

Jim: It’s just the way it works. When you’re trying to project perfection, people move away from that-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … because they can’t be that.

John: Hmm.

Jim: And I, I-

Mark: And they won’t be that.

Jim: And I love that concept as a grandparent to let them know where you weren’t perfect.

Mark: Well, that you, that you’re imperfect. I mean-

Jim: ‘Cause they’ll move towards you.

Mark: Yeah, who likes being around a perfect person?

Jim: Well-

Mark: They drive you crazy.

Jim: Not only that-

Mark: You know?

Jim: … but there’s something inside even a child, who goes, “I don’t know if I could trust that.”

Mark: Well, I-

Jim: “‘Cause I don’t believe it’s true.”

Mark: That’s right. And I think-

Jim: (laughs).

Mark: … the other part is you create an unbelievable atmosphere when you allow… I mean, during those training years, 1 through 12, you want things to be perfect. But beyond that, you wanna start showing some imperfection because it creates an environment that a child’s attracted to. They would much rather be in an imperfect world knowing that we’re striving for good things than to live in a world where they’re never gonna reach what Mom and Dad want them to reach.

And so, as a parent, and as a grandparent, I share things about me where they know feelings and thoughts. All the imperfections in my life, I let them know because I want them to know it’s okay to struggle because as we struggle together, we get to a better place.

Jim: Well, and how about the reinforcement that through our imperfection is where we need Christ…

Mark: Absolutely.

Jim: … and then that Christ-

Mark: Absolutely.

Jim: … fills in that gap?

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: And it’s the gift of salvation.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: It’s not earned. It’s given.

Mark: That’s right. And that’s when they start asking questions.

Jim: Right. And then they understand it.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: Yeah, this has been so good, Mark. Thank you for being with us.

Mark: Oh, absolutely.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: Fantastic.

Jim: We-

John: It’s been great.

Jim: … often have a call for more grandparenting resources-

Mark: Hmm.

Jim: … so this is one. Here we are. We’re answering the call. Mark has come all the way from Texas to give us some input. And what a great book, Grandparenting Teens: Leaving a Legacy of Hope.

Mark: Hmm.

Jim: You might be in that spot where you feel like you’ve blown it. And we haven’t been able to cover it all, but what a great start. Get a copy of the book. And as we often do, be part of the ministry. Help us to pay for producing radio programs, podcasts, materials, uh, the counseling team that is available to you.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, help us in that way, and we’ll send you a copy of Mark’s book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. And, uh, that’s a great way to go. If you can do it monthly, that’s what Jean and I do. I know Dena and you do that, John.

John: We do as well, yes.

Jim: And, uh, you know, we’ll also send you (laughs) the, uh, book to say thank you for that.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, again, Grandparenting Teens: Leaving a Legacy of Hope. Start now.

John: Yeah, contact us today and donate generously as you can, either a monthly pledge or a one-time gift. Help Focus on the Family have a greater impact for grandparents, for parents, for families. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And we have all the details about Mark’s book and ways to donate at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Preview:

Well, join us again tomorrow. Gary Thomas wants to help you avoid a boring marriage.

Gary Thomas: But if we’re joined together to seek first God’s kingdom and we’re seeing God use us and that’s what we were made for, there’s no boredom in that. That’s as exciting as a marriage can get.

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