Focus on the Family Broadcast

John Fuller: Today on Focus on the Family we’ll hear about the heartbreak of walking away from your spouse.

Preview:

Mark Savage: My marriage was a just too hard, uh, life was too hard. It wasn’t worth it. I needed- I needed to start over. I needed something new. Uh, I took the steps to pursue something new. I- I found a new relationship. I left Jill and my kids, and um … I’m sorry.

Jim Daly: No.

Mark: Wow. I left Jill and my kids believing that that new relationship was going to be the cure all, but the problem was I took somebody with me, and that was me.

End of Preview

John: Well, Mark Savage, um, describing very dark, confusing period of his life as a Christian husband and father. And we’re gonna hear more of his remarkable story, how God stepped in to rescue their marriage. And uh, stay tuned. Uh, this is a great program for you, although we are gonna be talking about some things pretty candidly. So if you have young kids, uh, within earshot you might, uh, go to earbuds or have them move out of the room. Your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly and I’m John Fuller.

Jim: John, infidelity is a tragic, heartbreaking issue. That’s what we’re gonna be talking about today. And the ramifications are so much more devastating than the culture realizes. Uh, sure there may be the initial rush of excitement and indulgence for that unfaithful spouse, but it’s short lived. We all know that. And as Mark indicated in that tender comment, the ultimate consequence is nothing but pain and sorrow. Sadly most marriages don’t survive an affair-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … because it’s awfully hard to maintain a relationship of love and trust once that is broken. And uh, today we’re gonna say, there is hope. There’s good news. Research shows us that couples who are willing to work through betrayal and pain with, uh, godly forgiveness and hope can eventually rebuild that relationship.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And in many cases their marriage becomes even stronger than it was before because they’re now so transparent.

John: Yeah.

Jim: They’re naked in the garden once again. Uh, it’s not an easy process. But we here at Focus on the Family want to encourage you. If you’re in that spot or you know somebody who is, this is going to be a powerful program.

John: And certainly, uh, as we go along here, if we’re touching a nerve, get in touch with us. We have caring Christian counselors who can talk things through with you and our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Now, Mark and Jill Savage have served in church ministry for about 20 years. Uh, they meet the needs of families through, uh, their speaking and writing. And uh, they have five grown children and eight grandkids. And uh, today our conversation centers around a small but very powerful book that Jill has written called, Your Next Steps: What to do When Your Spouse is Unfaithful. And we do have copies of that here at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Mark and Jill, welcome back to Focus.

Mark: Yes.

Jill Savage: Thank you.

Jim: So good to have you here again. Um, this is a difficult subject but for the radio listeners, podcasters-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … can see this, but you have smiles on your faces.

Jill: (laughs).

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: I mean, you have gotten through this, you know, painful moment. I’m mostly concerned about those that are just stepping into this-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … or they have suspicions and it may be around the corner.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: For the listener-

Mark: Right.

Jim: … for the YouTube watcher, whatever it might be. So, that’s the person I have in mind right now. And it’s difficult. This is-

Jill: Yeah.

Jim: … a difficult topic. It rips many marriages apart, like I said in the beginning. So I gonna say-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … thank you for your willingness to come and share it. Um, you know, it’s hard to always share, maybe your greatest sin ever, right?

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But it’s for God’s testimony that you do it. I know that.

Mark: Absolutely.

Jill: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Jim: And the purpose of healing not hurting people.

Mark: Right.

Jim: And for the listeners, I know if you’re suspicious or you’re, you know, your spouse has just told you something’s up, it- it feels crushing. But I’m tellin’ ya, I guarantee this is gonna to be helpful to you today.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So let’s go back to the reveal when it was found out that- that Mark, you were having an affair. What was that day like? What happened?

Jill: Mm. You know, it was a- a bit of a longer reveal I would say, because I knew that Mark wasn’t in a good place emotionally. But uh-

Jim: What was that intuition like? What- that woman’s thing that you kind of sensed, okay, he’s not in a good place?

Jill: Uh, he was discontent with life. Uh, he was easily angered. He had struggled because he had left church ministry a year earlier and it just seemed like there was-

Mark: My identity had, uh, really been in the title, pastor.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Mark: And uh, I would have never understood that.

Jill: And you would have said it wasn’t.

Mark: Right.

Jill: But the reality was-

Mark: My identity’s in Christ, not. (laughs)

Jim: Right.

Mark: And so it was, uh, I was just very confused and frustrated.

Jill: And-

Jim: So that day came. What happened?

Jill: So the first discovery was- when it was, this relationship was just an emotional connection. And I discovered it on his phone. Um, he had … Uh, we were out to dinner and he had gone to the bathroom and left his phone on the table. And this person had actually texted him. And I was like, what is this?

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Jill: And so we talked about it at that moment. And we talked about the guardrails in our relationship. And we have an agreement that I don’t text with a man without loopin’ him in. And, you know, he kind of, um, said yes-

Mark: I minimized it. Mm-hmm.

Jill: Yeah. It’s no big deal. You know, this is, she’s going through a hard time. And I was just havin’ a conversation. So we talked about the fact that he needed to loop me in from that point on. Which you did for maybe two weeks.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jill: And then it went underground. And then about four months later I came home from a speaking engagement and Mark had fallen asleep with the phone in his hand in bed. And I thought, oh, you know, bless his heart, he was so tired. And I went to pick it up and went to plug it in and saw what was on the screen, and saw that they had actually been together the weekend before. And I knew that this wasn’t just an emotional affair it had become a physical affair.

Jim: What- what- what were your emotions like?

Jill: Ah.

Jim: I mean, I think we can all envision that. But I’d love for you to articulate that. I mean it’s betrayal and those things.

Jill: Yeah.

Jim: But what- I mean what-

Jill: I mean honestly the- my very first emotion, I wanted to throw up.

Jim: Yeah.

Jill: Like physically-

Jim: Yeah.

Jill: I became physically ill. And I- I was … My mind was swirling. Like, what do I even do with this? I don’t even know what to do with this. And um, I had a friend that knew that Mark was not in a good place, she knew that he hadn’t been in a good place for a long time. And she had said to me on several different occasions, “My phone is on 24 hours a day.” And I was like, “Well, Beck, thank you so much. But I’m not going to call you at the middle of the night.” And she was like, “I know, I’m just telling you. My phone’s on 24 hours a day.”

Jim: Wow.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: What a friend.

Jill: And I’m gonna tell you what, it was 1:30 in the morning when I had picked that up out of his hand, ’cause I’d been speaking in Chicago and that’s about a two hour drive home. So I’d driven home late, and um, I called my friend Beck. And I was so grateful. We cried on the phone, we prayed on the phone. She stayed on the phone with me most of the night.

John: And- and all of this happening while Mark is in bed-

Jill: Sleeping-

John: … sleeping.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: Well no, that’s a really important point.

John: Uh-huh.

Jim: Because a lot of things could have gone sideways right there, right.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: The fact that you pulled back, called a friend. I think that’s incredibly admirable of you.

Jill: I mean ho- honestly, if you wanna know the truth I wanted to slap him, but (laughs) [crosstalk]-

Jim: Well and-

Jill: I mean, I wanted to wake him up and pull him out of bed.

Jim: … I’m sure. Or worse, right?

Mark: Right.

John: Yes.

Jim: He is asleep. You could do a lot of damage.

Jill: (laughs).

John: (laughs).

Mark: (laughs).

Jim: But, but I mean, seriously.

Jill: Yeah.

Jim: That’s an amazing first step that you made, which says a lot about who you are-

Jill: Well I-

Jim: … rather than going, you know, to the kitchen for an implement.

Jill: Right?

Jim: I mean seriously.

Jill: Right.

Jim: I mean, you know, there- there’s a lot of strange ways that people respond in this.

Jill: Yes.

Jim: Mark, let me bring it back to you for a minute because there was this see-saw affect that occurred over the next few weeks or months. I not-

Mark: Months, yeah.

Jim: … I’m not sure. Where you were, you know, telling Jill yeah we’re done, it’s off and then it would rekindle. Describe that. And even in that confusion what was going on?

Mark: Well, uh, so the Christ-centered part of me wanted to, uh, restore, get things figured out between Jill and I. But the flesh part of me just ha … I was without hope. I- we had wrestled for so many years with our differences, with trying to figure each of us out, that I was worn out with all of that. And uh, in my absolute discouragement I would run home and say, “I am staying with you. I’m ending that. Let’s figure this out.” But then in my hopelessness I’d run back to the relationship. And I did that eight times.

Jill: Seven or eight times, yeah.

Jim: Oo.

Mark: And uh, and then finally I ended up finding an apartment and moving out.

Jim: What was that length of time? Just so we get an idea of the eight times you were-

Mark: Um.

Jill: Yeah.

Jim: … in and out of the relationship.

Jill: So, um, so that would have been from October to, uh, May.

Jim: So, you know-

Jill: Six-

Jim: … the better part of a ye-

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Well over six months.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: So-

Jill: Right.

Jim: … Jill I do want ask you, because I know woman right now, some may even be screaming as they’re hearing this, because they’ve gone through something. And they’re going, “Jill you should have just left him.”

Mark: Hm.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I- I think really I want to speak to the Christian community-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … ’cause there is a difference. I mean, people that don’t believe in Christ, they’re not bound by those, you know, God given boundaries-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … those God given decrees to try to repair their marriage. I would hope that they would, because of the benefits that come from that. But for the Christian community particularly Jill is-

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … even a Christian woman is saying, “Jill, what are you thinking?

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Let him go.” You may have even gotten some of that advice.

Jill: Oh. I certainly did. And-

Jim: Speak to those two halves of the brain, you know-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … what your logic side is telling you and then what the spirit is telling you.

Jill: Yeah. I mean definitely, um, I had people say that. Um, I had that thought in, you know, multiple times, like at what point? Because hon- this wasn’t the first issue that we had dealt with. There had been other things. Um, there had been a background of pornography and there had been other pieces and at- at some point, you know, you kinda go, I’m tired. Okay, I- I just wanna be done with this.

Jim: Well, I guess the point there is, the church as well as the culture will legitimize that and say-

Jill: Right.

Jim: … you had every right. And, you know, the bible does say, you have every right.

Jill: Sure.

Jim: Get out of this.

Jill: Right. And, but I did- I did not feel released from it.

Jim: Huh.

Jill: I didn’t feel released from it and I would ask God what to do. I begged God to tell me what to do. In fact it was probably a day, maybe two days after I discovered the physical affair, that I can remember I was on my living room floor. I was home alone just balling my eyes out, begging God to tell me what to do. And I heard one thing, one thing. I heard him say, “I want you to love him.” And I got off of the floor and I looked at heaven and I shook my fist at heaven and I said, “I don’t know if you noticed lately, but he’s not real lovable right now.” And I heard God whisper back to my heart, and sometimes you aren’t either.

Jim: Wow.

Jill: And that was a moment that I was like, “All right Lord, you love me when I’m unlovable. I don’t know how to do that.”

Jim: You know, it- it’s a beautiful tender moment. It ha- I have tears in my eyes because it’s powerful. But it is exactly the spiritual illustration that God uses throughout the scripture-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to define His relationship with the church, right.

Mark: Oh, yeah.

Jill: Yes.

Jim: … you’re a harlot. You come and go. You aren’t committed to me.

Jill: Yeah.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And I mean, wow. There’s nothing that we experience in this life, closer I think, to the heart of God, than our love for one another in marriage.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And then the betrayal of that.

Mark: Oh, yeah.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s what God feels with his people.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And that’s why I think it’s so powerful, it stings so much. But for Him to put that in your heart-

Jill: It was-

Jim: Wow. Neither are you.

Jill: And that- that really became … I mean, I learned how to love someone who wasn’t loving me back. And that was a huge lesson.

Jim: And where would you say that turning point, maybe it was that, but that turning point back toward saving your marriage, where did it start and what did it feel like?

Jill: Yeah. I would say it was there. Um, I was committed to doing whatever needed to be done. And at that point I really began to look at myself even deeper. Because one of the things I realized is, I didn’t cause Mark to be unfaithful. But I contributed to the dysfunction in our marriage. And I needed to figure that piece out.

Jim: That’s really hard for women to embrace.

Jill: It’s hard for any of us to embrace.

John: Yeah.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Well, I think that particularly a woman that is faithful, but maybe there’s something broken in the relationship or not as healthy as it could be. It may be physical intimacy. I don’t know what it could be.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: But it’s hard to look at your own heart for that speck.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jill: But a- it is, it is. But I knew, whether my marriage made it or not, I needed to know what I had brought dysfunctionally to the relationship.

Jim: Right.

Jill: I mean, I really had that in my mind. Like, I can’t control him. I can’t control what he’s gonna do. I can only change what I bring to the table.

Jim: Yeah.

Jill: And so that began the journey for me. And I had to look at my critical spirit. I had a critical spirit and it was robbing Mark of, um, feeling connected to me. I had to look at the fact that I- I was very much a thinker. So we’re opposite in the way most marriages are. Um, most marriages the men are the thinker, the women are the feeler.

Jim: Right.

Jill: Okay. I our marriage we’re in the other 20/80. I’m the thinker, he’s the feeler. And so I had to realize that my emotional strength, I would … And I say strength carefully, um, was actually sending an unintentional message to my husband that I did not need him.

Jim: Or that he’s inadequate spiritually.

Jill: Yeah.

Jim: If I could say it that way.

Jill: Yeah.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um-

Jill: Yeah.

Jim: No, and I appreciate that. Mark, I do wanna ask that same question of you. When do you think that tipping point? I mean, you’re full of confusion at that point.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I’m sorry to say brother.

Mark: (laughs).

Jim: But I mean, really eight-

Mark: Yeah-

Jim: … times back and forth. Um-

Mark: Oh, yeah.

Jim: I don’t even know how you’re finding your gyroscope in that, you know, where’s your spiritual center? But obviously you’re here-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … and that’s the celebration and the gutsiness-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … of being here.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: Something got you headed in the right direction.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: What was that thing and what was that day about?

Mark: Well, uh, I think it was a series of leadings by the Lord. Uh, one I wanted to, uh, meet with Jill on a consistent basis, not to restore our marriage. I was very clear about that.

Jim: And you’re at an apartment at this point. You’re not living together-

Mark: Right.

Jim: You’re separated.

Mark: We’re separated. I want … Uh, so I let Jill know, hey we have five kids I want to, uh-

Jill: I want to do lunch every week.

Mark: And uh-

Jill: And he said, “I’m not willing to restore our marriage.”

Mark: Hmm.

Jill: “This is not to restore our marriage. It’s because we have five children together.”

Mark: Yeah.

Jill: So, my friends were saying, “Don’t go.” My family was saying, “Don’t go.” And I would pray and ask God, and I sensed that I was to go.

John: Mm.

Jim: Ah, yeah.

John: Lots of a- lots of dynamics here in this relationship and in the story. And uh, we’re so grateful to Mark and Jill Savage for sharing so candidly. Now let me just say real quick, uh, Jill has written a book called, Your Next Steps: What to do When Your Spouse is Unfaithful. Uh, it’s a great little resource, and uh, you can get your copy at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 800-A-family.

Jim: M- Mark I’m coming back to you. ‘Cause I really wanna know that turning point.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And Jill, I appreciate the commentary on that from your heart. But what again, what was your compass? When did you say to yourself, maybe even before Jill, okay, this isn’t about just the kids, it’s about the potential of-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … us getting back together? ‘Cause as Jill just described, you’re not there.

John: Yeah.

Mark: Right, right.

Jim: And you’re laying out the perimeters.

Mark: Right.

Jim: Let’s get together for lunch. This isn’t about us. This isn’t about us reconciling-

John: It’s a business meeting-

Jim: Yeah, it’s-

Mark: Yeah, a business meeting-

Jim: … like a business meeting. That’s-

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: … a good point.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I had convinced myself of the thought that my kids would be okay. They would understand and they didn’t understand and that continued to, uh, gnaw at me. I came from a divorced family-

Jim: Hm.

Mark: … and here I was heading down the same path. That continued to gnaw at me. But I carried this list of- of issues that I held against Jill. And I just could not get passed the list. This relationship, uh, as I’m in this mess, this relationship that I was in was demanding more of me, more decisions. Uh, and all of a sudden I’m in the same cesspool with this other relationship, that I had with Jill. And I- I think my prayer leading up to Easter 2012 was, Lord, I do not know how to love Jill. I have loved her based upon what I would get out of it. What the heck do I do? And then it was Easter morning. I was such a mess I didn’t even realize it was Easter. We had been helping our daughter-

Jill: Who had just had a- one of our- our second grandchild.

Mark: Right.

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Mark: And uh, we ended up, uh, home late that night. Uh, it was like 2 a.m. and Jill asked if I wanted to stay the night because it was so late, and uh, so I did. And then, I think that next morning Jill probably thought that I had completely lost it. I was totally schizophrenic. I woke her up and I said, “Jilly, I just want you to know, I’m gonna file for divorce this week. The list is too great, and I just don’t have the energy. I don’t wanna do what I need to do-

Jim: Hm.

Mark: … to rebuild this marriage.” And then Jill said, or she reminded me-

Jill: I said, “You know it’s- it’s Easter Mark. And uh, Jesus Christ didn’t want to go to the cross either. He asked God to take it from him. You know, when he was in the garden of Gethsemane, he said, ‘Take this from me.’ And then he said, ‘But not my will, but yours be done.’” And that’s all I said.

Mark: Right. And in a weird way, I’d been praying, uh, or thinking, I really want Easter to be different this year. I wanted it to be different than candy and rabbits, which we never celebrated (laughs) Easter that way. But all of a sudden, I had the realization that it was Easter and I was desperate. I- I had made a complete mess. I was overwhelmed with all of it. But I was a desperate man. And I heard, uh, Father God whisper to me, that if I would trust Him with the list, He would take care of the rest.

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: And it was in that moment that I actually went from, Jill I want a divorce, to, oh my gosh, you’re right, it’s Easter. And I modified Jesus’ prayer, not take this marriage from me but, Lord I’ll do whatever you want.

Mark: Your will be done, not mine. And I had a total pivot in my direction. All of a sudden I had clarity.

Jim: Yeah. And you know Mark, what’s really revealing there, and I think this is so true, and I mentioned it a moment ago Jill with your heart, you know, women tend to look at, okay, what did I do wrong? And men do what you did. Hey, the list is too long. You have blown it.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s our ego I think. Just that male ego.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: Hey, this problem is you.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: And until we get that list figured out, I’m outta here.

Mark: Right.

Jim: I’m mean the … And guys, you’re hearing it right from Mark. That’s exactly the opposite of what … God wants us to look at ourselves.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: That log-

Mark: Hm.

Jim: … I said speck earlier-

Jill: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … but that log in ourselves, our own eye-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: To look at our own list.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And did you feel that- that finger in a good way coming back at you? Listen, there may be that list but that’s tomorrow’s news buddy.

Mark: Right.

Jim: Today’s news is your list.

Mark: I, uh, I found myself so overwhelmed with all of it that what I felt was God like a dad, a tender dad reaching down to his toddler son who had fallen into this mud pit, and helpin’ him out.

Jim: Wow.

Mark: And um, I needed it. Uh, I didn’t have, uh, I had two men in my life who were my dad and they were unhealthy. I didn’t have a good view of God and all of a sudden the real daddy God was reaching down and saying, “Mark I’m gonna help you out of this mess.”

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: And in my desperation I said, “Please, I’m with ya.”

Jim: Mark, I think this may be the question for the men listening.

Mark: Yeah.

Jim: Ho- how do you recognize that? How do you know the Father’s talking to you? How-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I mean, ’cause you’re in a mess.

Mark: Right.

Jim: Maybe that guy listening is in that mess and he doesn’t know up from down.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: He doesn’t know right from wrong.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And to be able to open your heart up and say, “Dad-

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … I need to hear from you.”

Mark: Right.

Jim: I mean, h- how do you get there, if you’re stuck and you’re not hearing clearly?

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: I know it’s a really tough question.

Mark: Well, my first thought is, when you’re in such a mess and you have a healthy thought, it’s probably not from you. (laughs)

Jim: Right.

Mark: It’s probably-

Jim: Wow.

Mark: … the Lord. And in that moment of desperation, because I was so bound by the list, I just knew it was the Lord saying, “Mark, give me the list. Trust me with the list and I’ll take care of the rest.”

Jim: Yeah.

Mark: And he did. By the end of the day … Uh, well, for one, I had attended church for a while, uh, I looked to Jill after I voiced that prayer, and I said, “Uh, can- can I go to church with you?” And, uh-

Jill: Yeah, it was pretty … I was like, yeah. And I had watched-

Jim: That was an obvious change in his-

Jill: Well, I watched-

Jim: Yeah.

Jill: … the change-

Jim: That’s great.

Jill: … in front of my eyes.

Jim: Wow.

Jill: I mean sometimes people will say, “How could you begin to rebuild trust again?” But when you’ve actually seen someone throw up the white flag of surrender-

Mark: Yeah.

Jill: … and actually do it in front of you, which I was so grateful I got to witness that. Now I didn’t trust- I didn’t trust him. And remember this is the guy that’s gone back and forth seven times at this point in time. So, but at the same time I’d never seen what just happened.

Jim: But what’s interesting, what you’re describing is you had hope. Hope was being rekindled.

Jill: Yes.

Jim: Maybe not trust-

Mark: Right.

Jim: … but you had hope.

Mark: Ah.

Jim: That’s critical.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jill: Yes.

Jim: That’s like the first step to getting there.

Jill: Yes.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And uh, wow, you guys, this has been so good. I uh, this has got to go another day if you’re willing to stay with us.

Mark: Love it.

Jill: (laughs) sure.

Jim: Because I- I do wanna come back. And you’ve done such a beautiful job laying out your circumstances. And of course not everybody’s circumstances are the same, we get that. But um, I wanna come back next time and kind of broaden this to the general audience to talk about the blame ratio, the mismatched emotions. What you write about in the booklet Jill, obsessiveness, triggers, lifetime recovery. Let’s come back and extend those ideas, those thoughts of hope. Let’s not go for trust yet. Let’s just get people hopeful and checking their own heart. Can we do that?

Jill: Yeah.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

New Speaker: We’d love to.

Mark: Absolutely.

Jim: That’ll be so good. And uh, I just wanna reiterate to the listeners, to the viewers that, um, if you’re in that spot or you’re suspecting that your spouse may, um, unfaithful, call us. It’s free, we have donors that have made it possible for us to have caring Christian counselors. That’s why we’re here. Yes, we’re gonna do this in a Christian, loving way. That’s all we know. We are Christ’s followers. So we’re not gonna give you worldly responses. We’re gonna give you biblical responses-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … to what God expects of you. And if you’re willing to follow God in that way, we’re willing to give you the truth.

John: And uh, we really do wanna hear from you today. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. Online, you’ll find us at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And when people get in touch Jim, we can tell them about Hope Restored, which is a terrific program in which offer marriage counseling over several days. And we’ve seen transformations and miracles take place through that program. So when you get in touch ask us more about Hope Restored.

Jim: John, let me amplify that for a moment. This is an incredible program. Most of the people that attend our Hope Restored intensive program, they’ve already signed divorce papers, or they’re about to sign ’em. And they’re saying, “Okay, we agree this will be the last thing that we try.”

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And we go back to these couples two years later, and praise God, 80% of those couples are together and doing better. I- I think it’s one of the best things in the country to repair the damage in your marriage. So, give it a try.

John: Yeah, and in fact you might know a couple that went, uh, to Hope Restored and she said, “If I don’t hear from God this week, I’m gone.”

Jim: Right.

John: She heard from God and it’s been months and they’re together. And uh, they have hope again.

Jim: Yeah.

John: So, our number again, uh, if you wanna hear more about Hope Restored or, uh, if we can send Jill’s booklet to you, Your Next Steps: What to do When Your Spouse is Unfaithful. 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And we’re listener supported as Jim mentioned. Uh, donors, uh, make it possible for us to provide these counseling services to you. If you’re not part of the support team today, please consider a generous gift, uh, either a monthly pledge or a one-time gift. Either way we’ll say thank you by sending this booklet to you. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team here, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. Plan to be with us tomorrow as we continue the conversation with Mark and Jill, and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.