Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Dr. Erwin Lutzer: So to put it in clear terms, there are many Americans who don’t mind saying they believe in God, just as long as they are god.

John Fuller: What an incredible insight from Dr. Erwin Lutzer. He joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to discuss the cultural darkness that we’re experiencing and how we, as Christians, can and should respond. Welcome to the program, I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Hey, John, here’s a light bulb idea. Christianity is not as popular in the culture like it used to be and, uh, we, as Christians, have a responsibility to understand the culture we live in and, by doing so, making the greatest impact we can for our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We want to equip you today to be able to do that, to be that representative of the Kingdom of God, so that we can impact a culture and do it in such a way that brings no shame to the Lord’s name, but-

John: Hm.

Jim: … only, uh, you know, the right things. And we’re gonna have a great discussion with our guest, who I am looking forward to talkin’ about this topic with.

John: Mm-hmm, yeah, Dr. Erwin Lutzer is pastor emeritus at Moody Bible Church in Chicago, where he served as senior pastor for over 36 years and he’s written a number of books. We’re talking about, uh, one of his latest, it’s really the heart of the conversation. The book is called, The Eclipse of God: Our Nation’s Disastrous Search for a More Inclusive Deity (and What We Must Do About It). Learn more about that book, we’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Dr. Lutzer, welcome back to Focus on the Family.

Dr. Lutzer: So glad to be with you again.

Jim: It’s always a meal. I- I just, I get my spiritual-

Dr. Lutzer: (laughs)

Jim: … fork and knife ready to go. You’re just-

Dr. Lutzer: (laughs)

Jim: … throwin’ it on the plate-

Dr. Lutzer: Okay.

Jim: … and we just start consuming it. This, I think, uh, given the content of what you’re talking about, and that is Christians in a culture that don’t embrace Christianity, this is an exciting topic for me. And I think my evangelistic heart comes alive with this kind of-

John: Hm.

Jim: … content, because we so desperately want people to know the good news and we don’t want to be the impediment. Our bad personality (laughs) attributes, our anger, our, you know, yeah, being miffed at a culture that doesn’t embrace what, uh, God has told us can really stir our hearts in a negative way. Man, we should not be the reason that somebody, uh, turns away from God, right?

Dr. Lutzer: That’s right.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Lutzer: But at the same time, they need truth, which they might feel is offensive, but they need to hear it. So we’ll get into those kinds of issues-

Jim: Ah, we will.

Dr. Lutzer: … in this program.

Jim: Let’s start with the obvious, uh, The Eclipse of God. What, uh, were you tryin’ to convey with the very title?

Dr. Lutzer: Well, when you stop to think of it, if there’s an eclipse of the sun, and we all know that what happens is the moon comes between the earth and the sun, and the sun is unaffected. The sun is just as bright as ever, but the moon of secularism has brought darkness on the land.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: You know, the Bible says in Isaiah chapter 59, verse 1, “Your sins have caused me to turn my face away from you.” So what I do in the book is, as I set this up, I talk about what darkness looks like, I talk about what light looks like, and I remind people that we are living at a time when the moon of secularism is constantly encroaching on the church, it is coming into places that we have not experienced in the past, and the question is, how do we relate to this in this present moment?

Jim: I love the metaphor. The- the only disappointing part is an eclipse of the moon, in reality, is pretty quick, it lasts about (laughs) 30 minutes.

Dr. Lutzer: Yes.

Jim: This seems to be lingering, this eclipse of the culture, this darkness that you’re talking about.

Dr. Lutzer: And I think the darkness is increasing.

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: I point out in the book that, you know, I think that as the dominoes begin to fall, that even the treatment of children-

Jim: Oh.

Dr. Lutzer: … and such things that we have in our schools today, all of that is going to accelerate-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: … it doesn’t seem as if the darkness is retreating. So the question is, what do we do as believers?

And one of the points that I want to emphasize in the book is, first of all, how does the darkness come to us and we can talk about philosophers and the relevance of these philosophers to us here in America. And then I also want to emphasize, and maybe I’m getting ahead of the discussion, I want to talk about the sovereignty of God, the fact that we must see God in the midst of this. But we also have to ask this question, and we’re certainly going to try to answer it, what are the lessons that we can learn from the past that we can apply to the present situation that we are in, lessons that relate to the church, but also to us as individuals.

Jim: Uh, man, you have said so much in that statement. Uh, we are gonna take it chunk by chunk. Let’s start with this concept. Well, first, let me say this, I’m hopeful-

John: Hm.

Jim: … I am not a pessimist. I mean, if anything, I had a nonbeliever friend of mine say to me (laughs) once, “If you guys,” meaning Christians, “if you guys are worried, I should be really worried, ’cause you’re not supposed to be worried, right?” Isn’t that an insight? I mean that’s, uh, an amazing insight.

Dr. Lutzer: That really is. At the same time, that doesn’t mean that we’re going to win, it means that, ultimately, we are going to see God in the midst of our predicament, because remember this, God doesn’t wait to see the news through His providential hand, God makes the news.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So to your point, Jim, which you could have said to him is, “Yes, I’m not worried, because God has already lived my tomorrows.”

Jim: Yeah, that’s a great line-

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: Uh-

Jim: … which will probably stop them in their tracks-

Dr. Lutzer: … that’s right.

Jim: … and they’ll think about that.

John: Hm.

Jim: Uh, why is it so important, uh, for Christians to remember the culture war is a spiritual one, ’cause, I mean, I’ve been in those trenches. It’s very difficult to take the fruit of the spirit into the culture war-

John: Hm.

Jim: … love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, mercy. Uh, those, uh, don’t feel like effective tools to f- battle in the culture war, but they are.

Dr. Lutzer: Here’s the problem we face. The problem is, we’re living at a time of irrationality. We’re living at a time where superior ideas don’t necessarily win the argument.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So to your point, we have to understand that behind this there is a cosmic battle between the spiritual forces of darkness and the spiritual forces of light. And we have to understand that behind all this that is going on and, therefore, we do fight differently. Because to emphasize the point again, we’re living at a time when “two plus two is equal to five,” if I might say that, you know this was-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: … taken from George Orwell. When “two plus two is equal to five” and when rational arguments no longer work. For example, if you say children from a two-parent home turn out better than one parent or no parent-

Jim: On average.

Dr. Lutzer: … on average, you won’t be met by statistics to show differently, you’ll be vilified.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So, it’s a different kind of culture and we’re gonna be talking about that. But in the midst of all of this, what we have to do in- indeed, is to see God and to know what our place is in a society that is clearly losing its way.

Jim: You know, and sometimes the consistency of being able to do that can be our difficulty. I remember I was, uh, debating, on a cable news channel, a woman who was pro-abortion, Jehmu Greene. I mean it’s out there in the record, so I’m not saying anything I shouldn’t say, and she came out of the gates accusing me of falsifying, uh, ultrasounds through our Option Ultrasound Program, which are just ultrasounds of babies, I mean I don’t know how you falsify that, (laughs) and that we set up fake clinics to help women, but we really don’t help women. She just came out of the gate with all these accusations. And, you know, I sat quietly, I smiled, I listened to what she had to say, and we had the debate. But at the very end, I just thank the Lord, ’cause I felt like the Lord gave me this to say to her, on live television, I said, “Jehmu, can I just say, I’m so glad your mom chose life for you.” (laughs)

Dr. Lutzer: (laughs)

Jim: And she had nowhere to go.

Dr. Lutzer: No.

Jim: I mean, what do you say, “I’m not,” that’s illogical, I’m here, right? And I just feel like that is one of the best ways to express God’s presence, His personality toward people, is don’t get rattled, don’t get angry at the anger, but remain calm, as calm as you can, and pray, and ask the Lord for a word-

Dr. Lutzer: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … that basically just lays it out there.

Dr. Lutzer: Not only that, but when you think of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, they actually served the wicked king, Nebuchadnezzar. I don’t think people stop and really think about that, but, you know, they did-

Jim: Yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: … they just did. So, it’s a reminder of the fact that there are some things in the culture that we can go along with. But when it came to bowing down before the image, that’s where they said, “No.” And that reminds us that every Christian has to think through where are these lines. I can maybe go along with this, but I can’t go along with that biblically, and that’s what we have to help people think through.

Jim: That- that is so true. Why do you think it’s important to examine ourselves as often, or more so, than we examine the culture?

Dr. Lutzer: Well, what we have to do is to understand our role in the world, and we have to understand who God is, and, therefore, it’s so important for us to not simply go along with the culture.

Now, Jim, because of Focus on the Family, you know this, that even Christian parents oftentimes are not raising their children today, the culture raises them-

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: … the cell phone raises them. So we are so much a part of the culture that sometimes we can’t look at the culture objectively. And so we have to ask ourselves, how did we get here and what is our role in the midst of the culture?

John: Yeah, it … Along those lines, Dr., uh, Lutzer, the cultural concepts about truth, and about identity, and about so much of what we believe is truth, uh, flood and built on really bad foundations. Walk us through some of the influences that brought us to, as a culture, these understandings.

Dr. Lutzer: Right, let me begin this way. Recently, I was in the city of Berlin and when you walk up the stairs at Berlin University, there’s a statement there by Karl Marx, it’s in German, but I translated it into English for the people that were there. What it says is this. “Hitherto, philosophers have only described the world, but the point is how do you change it?” So, John, I need to respond to you by saying that philosophers have greatly influenced the world.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: And that’s why I have a chapter, for example, that discusses very briefly Karl Marx. I do that because Nietzsche said, “God was dead,” and he said, “That there were gravediggers that dug the grave for God.” And I asked, “Who are these people.” Well there were many, but one was Karl Marx-

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: … who began the whole idea of oppressed versus oppressor. He was interested in the destruction of the family, because after all, the family is oppressive. Men oppress their wives, parents oppress their children, they take them to church, and God is the ultimate oppressor. So he objected to God as ruler. But this is critical, the next man is Darwin. Darwin says, in one of his quotes, “That the devil came to us in the form of a baboon, who is our grandfather.” Now let everyone stop and think about this.

John: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: If we came up through the animal world, and if the baboon is our grandfather, we have no argument against abortion, infanticide, no argument against euthanasia, we do that for animals and, according to the secular worldview, we are only more highly developed.

Here’s where the Bible speaks so directly. It says that we are created in the image of God and that’s why most people in the back of their minds know that we aren’t just animals, but they don’t realize that’s because of the creation account in the Book of Genesis. And then the third person I discuss is Freud, because Freud believed that sexual pleasure is the highest desire. And he attacked God, actually, as lawgiver, so this darkness comes to Europe. And in my book what I talk about is, what are the lessons that we have to learn that the church in Europe teaches us?

John: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: Because for the most part, the church in Europe was totally taken up by these ideas and these shadows, of course, have come to the United States. So, can I get into that for a moment, Jim?

Jim: Oh yeah, let’s do it.

Dr. Lutzer: Let’s do it.

Jim: (laughs)

Dr. Lutzer: A couple of things. First of all, and I say this with a heavy heart, we cannot take the continued existence of our churches for granted. I’ve been to Saint Petersburg, Russia and they took me into a church that was a museum during the communist era. And we can’t just think here, in America, that things are gonna go on the way they’re gonna go on. There are forces that are pounding against us, as you well know. The second lesson that is so critical, is sometimes these changes come incrementally, so you don’t even see them. It’s one small compromise after another and that, of course, has huge implications. The other is this, good people sometimes have compromised simply because of pressure. The pressure is so great, that even though they know better, they go against their consciences and they descend into darkness and become a part of it. Now, very quickly, what happened to the church in Europe, of course, is that these philosophers pounded against the church, but in addition, there were termites within the church that weakened it.

John: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: And, uh, many people, possibly, have not heard of Hitler’s program entitled Operation Grief. The German word is griffon. Brilliant idea, it didn’t work, but brilliant. What he said is this, “Let’s take the uniforms of dead allied soldiers, for example British soldiers, American soldiers, let’s put them on some of our troops, then they can go behind the lines, and be with the allies, and create problems. So that happened. They were giving false information, false rumors. They took road signs and changed them. Now it didn’t work well because what happened is, the fact is that the Germans, even though they spoke English, they still had a German accent, but that’s exactly what happens in the church.

John: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: You have false prophets who are wearing the uniform of Christianity, but are actually working against us-

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: … and that was happening in the church in Europe.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: You have men like Friedrich Schleiermacher. Don’t you think, Jim, he must be German? (laughs)

Jim: Probably.

Dr. Lutzer: Probably. (laughs)

Jim: You say that very well.

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah. (laughs) And, uh, what did he teach? Religion was but the feeling of absolute dependence.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: Okay, doctrine no longer matters much, what matters is feeling.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So think of how that has seeped into our culture-

Jim: And the church.

Dr. Lutzer: … s- and the church. And so the people of Europe, unfortunately, were in a position where they were given a brand of Christianity that was not worth living for, much less dying for-

Jim: Hm, yeah.

Dr. Lutzer: … and that’s why the church was overrun largely, there were many exceptions, but largely by the Nazi agenda and other darkness that came to Europe.

Jim: You know, in that context, uh, what do we do, uh, to respond to that kind of false gospel in the church in the West?

John: Hm.

Jim: I mean, what do Christians who are trying to live with spiritual truth, how do we combat that within the body?

Dr. Lutzer: There are different ways that we can approach it. If you’re speaking to the individual who’s listening to this broadcast that is in a church, that is no longer gospel preaching, they have to think seriously about leaving that church and by God’s grace finding a church that is still faithful to the gospel. On the other hand it has to serve as a warning to the pastors and the leaders of churches who are leading people astray because of cultural currents that are really unbiblical. And so in order to negotiate all that, in order to nuance it, that, of course, if a longer story. But everyone has to ask themselves the question, is my church being faithful, am I being faithful, or are we trimming the gospel in order to make it culturally relevant? For example, in my book I tell a story about a man who wrote a book on how liberalism came to Britain and notice this quote. He says, “There was a period of time when the cross was still preached, but it was so bedecked with flowers that nobody could see it.”

Jim: Huh.

Dr. Lutzer: In other words, the gospel was still there, but it was so flowery, and so undemanding, and so inclusive that the gospel of repentance and faith in Christ was lost and there was not a clear proclamation of the gospel, the death and the resurrection of Jesus. Sin and all of its horror and grace and all of its beauty was lost.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: The reason that I wrote the book is because there is this idea out there that we can remake God according to our own image.

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: And God is more tolerant than He used to be. In fact, one of the longest chapters in my book is entitled, Is God More Tolerant Than He Used to Be? Because in the Old Testament you have stonings, you have the killing of the Canaanites and so forth. That doesn’t happen today. So the question really comes down to this, how do we relate to God and how do we understand Him. And we have created God in our own image and we have domesticated God-

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: … we have trivialized sin, we have brought God down to our level. So to put it in clear terms, there are many Americans who don’t mind saying they believe in God, just as long as they are god. And-

Jim: (laughs) Wow.

Dr. Lutzer: … what we’ve done is, we have, therefore, created an image of God, we have trimmed Him down. And that’s why the subtitle of the book is, you know, it is really the disastrous search for a more inclusive deity. You know, when you study the doctrine of God, Jim, I want to just push back a little bit about what you have said, “God can be very demanding.” Now we emphasize that, along with grace, of course, but at the same time, standing for truth is never really popular. And, um, one of the things that we can learn is what happened in Europe, and what happened there, and the darkness that came. And one of the things I do in the book is help people to understand the lessons for today’s church.

Jim: We’re gonna come back for part two, but in that context, what can Christians do to influence these cultural ideas that are damaging to humanity, not helping us.

Dr. Lutzer: Well, first of all, it begins with the family. How about this quote, “We have to focus on the family.” (laughs)

John: (laughs)

Jim: (laughs) That’s a good idea.

Dr. Lutzer: That’s a good idea.

John: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: Because I think it begins in the home, where Christians have the responsibility of the education of their children. Now we’re living at a time when we cannot trust the public schools. We could go into that, and I could illustrate that, and I do, but the point is simply this, that God is gonna hold parents responsible. I’m not saying that every parent is able to send their child to a faith-based school, or to have a classical education, as your children did, but rather to ask themselves the question, what am I doing as a responsible parent to guide my children in truth, to help them, to separate Christ from culture, knowing we can accept some of the culture, but we can’t accept all of the culture. Let me give you an illustration. Years ago Rebecca and I were in the Czech Republic and we met with a pastor who said this, “Under the communist regime, we hung together as a church. If somebody lost his job because of faithfulness, we all chimed in and we helped them financially, we brought food and so forth. But then freedom came and with freedom eventually came the cell phone.” And he says, “We’re losing the next generation to the culture.”

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: And I’m not blaming it all on the cell phone, but that has a great deal of impact in today’s society.

So, what’s happening is, we have these cultural streams around us that we don’t even recognize. You remember the story, you’ve probably heard it, about the fish that were swimming along and an older fish came and said, “How’s the water today boys?” And the two younger fish, after the older one was gone, said, uh, “What did he mean by water?”

Jim: Yeah, right. (laughs)

Dr. Lutzer: We are so inundated with a culture that we don’t even see it.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Lutzer: So it begins with the home, it begins with the church, it begins with prayer-

Jim: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: … seeking God, because oftentimes the answers are very difficult and very unclear.

Jim: And there is this battle that’s going on and I think, oftentimes, we don’t want to use those terms. But, um … And I think sometimes we’re shamed into not using those ter- … Uh, there, there’s no battle, what are you talkin’ about? Uh, but we need to be aware of what spiritually is happening. You know, um, in the area of teachers, we have two teachers sitting in the gallery listening to this taping right now. And this is true, there are really wonderful teachers in public schools, and there are real wonderful Christian teachers in public schools, and we want to recognize that. But it’s as if the system, those that are controlling curriculum, those that are dictating what needs to be done in public education, are putting social re-engineering far out in front of basic skills, of reading, writing, arithmetic, and it’s destroying the trust in the public school system. So I just, I just want to make that distinction, but-

Dr. Lutzer: Yes, and the sexualization of children today-

Jim: Oh.

Dr. Lutzer: … in our schools is terrible. It’s destroying the next generation. You know, I’ve written a book about Hitler and I can’t help but going back to him. When he said, in effect, to the German people, “You take care of the child. You clothe them, you feed them, but their hearts will belong to the Reich,” the Reich, namely the German Empire. And that’s the way culture is today. Parents feed their child, they take their child to school, but oftentimes the heart of the child belongs to the world.

John: Hm.

Jim: Yeah, and that’s so discouraging. I don’t want to end on that note. Uh, what is the positivity, spiritually speaking, about the moment we’re in. Let’s end there and come back-

John: Hm.

Jim: … next time with more discussion. But we as Christians, what do we hope in when we look at the landscape of culture and go, “Wow, this is really dark.”

Dr. Lutzer: You know, Jim, I’ve given quite a bit of thought to the question that you’ve asked. How do we develop within the next generation and, for that matter, within ourselves, the ability to stand against the culture? And I think it can only happen when we begin to live life not for this life, but for the life to come.

Jim: Amen.

Dr. Lutzer: When I look at people who have died as martyrs, for example, their hope was not in this life. I spoke to a man who was a pastor in East Germany and he said, “During the communist era,” he said, “only about 15% of the people continued to go to church and to identify with Christianity. Why? Because the pressure was so great. You might lose your job if you go to church, your children won’t have an education.” Now, who are these 15%? They were people who said, “This life is not as important as the life to come. Therefore, what I’m going to do is to invest in eternity and believe that I will be rewarded for faithfulness. And I don’t need to see that reward in this life, I believe that it will be mine in the life to come.” As a matter of fact, when, uh, Niemoller stood up against Hitler, there were those who said, “Now, you know, you shouldn’t have confronted him directly. How does this make the church look?” And I believe that I’m quoting him correctly when he said, “The issue is not how we look on earth, the issue is how do we look in Heaven?”

John: Hm.

Dr. Lutzer: So as we introduce children and others to heroes, we always have to come down to this question, how much are we willing to suffer for the cause of Christ and how much do we believe in the world to come that makes the suffering of this world totally worth it?

Jim: Well that’s a good place to end today, Dr. Lutzer. Thank you for being with us, we’ll pick it up next time.

John: Mm-hmm, hm.

Jim: What a great resource, The Eclipse of God: Our Nation’s Disastrous Search for a More Inclusive Deity. I think those of us that are Christians, truly Christians committed to Christ, convictional Christian, we smell it all around us-

John: Hm.

Jim: … that idea of creating a deity, that the culture’s helping to create, that takes our attention away from the true God and we’ll come back and talk more about that next time. If you feel like, wow, I need to be, I need to be equipped with this information, get a copy of this great book directly from Focus. If you can make a gift of any amount, if you can do it monthly or a one-time gift, we’ll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying, “Thank you for being part of the ministry.”

John: Hm. Yeah, we’re committed to helping you live out your faith as effectively as you can for Christ. Get a copy of this book when you donate. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459 or find details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Dr. Lutzer and, once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

DAY TWO

Dr. Erwin Lutzer: And of course as you and I know, the big challenge for Christians is how do we offend people but not be offensive?

John Fuller: That’s Dr. Erwin Lutzer from our last broadcast talking about the absence of God in the culture and what we can do about bringing Christ’s light to the world. I’m John Fuller and welcome to another episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: John, I think it is important to point out that when you look at Gallup research or other research now, um, people who are convictional Christians are a smaller number of the population than we once were. There’s still a large number of people that believe in God, but that’s pretty thin. But those that go to church, read scripture regularly, that number has come way down over the last few, uh, decades. Uh, we talked last time with Dr. Lutzer about the spiritual battle Christians are in and the importance of turning to God In Prayer. Uh, maybe not bringing our emotions especially not our negative emotions like anger and other things-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … into those discussions. Ultimately, God is in control and we should rest in that. We might have to go through a season that should be rather exciting, but maybe challenging-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … as people’s hearts grow darker. It does give us an opportunity to shed more light-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … into these, uh, situations. So I’m looking forward to part two of the program that we started last time. Uh, based on his book, The Eclipse of God, I’m looking forward to the discussion. I love this kind of content.

John: Yeah, and we’ve got all of day one, uh, available to you, uh, through, uh, podcasting and our mobile app, and the website, and YouTube. So check out that first part if you didn’t get a chance to hear it or see it. Uh, Dr. Lutzer is pastor emeritus at Moody Church in Chicago where he served for over 36 years as senior pastor. He’s written a number of books, and as you said Jim, The Eclipse of God is, uh, the most recent one and that forms the foundation for our discussion. Find out more about that book, uh, on our website. We’ve got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Dr. Lutzer, it’s so good to have you back for part two of this program. I loved it last time talking about the things in your book. Uh…

Dr. Lutzer: Well, thank you, Jim. And I want to pick up immediately on something that you said about the sovereignty of God.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: And how we have to see God in our present culture. Most of our listeners will remember that the prophet Isaiah in chapter 6, the Bible says in the year that King Josiah died, I saw the Lord. Josiah was a relatively good King. He ended a little badly, but here’s the point. God was saying to the prophet, “The throne of Israel may be empty, but the throne in Heaven is well occupied.”

Jim: Wow.

Dr. Lutzer: And in the midst of political wrangling, in the midst of so so many cultural pressures that we’re finding, in the midst of our very conflicting culture, we have to remember that God is still God and the throne in Heaven is well occupied. Now, I want to pick up on a second thing that you mentioned namely that the number of believers, the real committed Christians is smaller. But, you know, when you look at history, you find throughout the ages often times the church has always been an island of righteousness in a sea of paganism.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So we have to see ourselves as those who can learn, from those who have gone before us and in that sense, our battles are not new. Now, they are new in the sense of technology and all, but the church has always had to stand against the culture.

Jim: You know, it raises an interesting question for me which is, uh, when you’re in that position… I mean, my pastor, Brady Boyd at New Life here in Colorado Springs says it this way, “Christians do best when we’re the joyful minority.” That’s an interesting statement because when we have power as a church it’s been kind of disastrous if you look at Europe and the Crusades and other things like that. When human beings have power they struggle wielding it righteously, especially without God. But in that context, uh, we as Christians how do we view the demands, the good demands of upon us in this moment?

Dr. Lutzer: I want to push back just a little bit on what you said when you said that we do best if we are joyful as a minority. That’s true.

Jim: Or a joyful minority, right?

Dr. Lutzer: If we’re a joyful minority, that’s true. I sign on to that. But I want to add a sobering fact and that is that there are times when the church has been extinguished because of the culture. I’m thinking for example of Marxism. I’ve preached in the country of Albania which was under Marxism.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: And you would be surprised at the number of believers today. God is really growing the church but there was a time, 40 or 50 years ago when it was said that there are no Christians in Albania. Now, there were some we discovered, but what we have to do is to recognize that there comes a time when the culture can so close in that only those who are doggedly faithful survive. And we hope that they do survive by the way with joy.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: But Christians throughout history have often had a very difficult and challenging role in the culture.

Jim: Yeah. And sometimes I think, you know, that’s what we are called to do. Uh, you encountered I think some Germans at an airport. Now a lot of your writings you go to Germany quite a bit it sounds like you even speak German. Is that true?

Dr. Lutzer: My parents spoke German at home but we answered in English. So I know enough that I can ask questions and get along, but I really am not fluent in German.

Jim: Li- like did you take the trash out? You can do, answer that in German?

Dr. Lutzer: (laughing) I’m sure, yes.

Jim: But in that context, you encountered some Germans in an airport. You had a pretty interesting exchange with them that you noted in the book. What happened?

Dr. Lutzer: I always try to take an opportunity to witness to people that I meet and there are many ways to get into a conversation about God. So here are these people. They have a layover O’Hare and I was there also with some time on my hands. I began to talk to them about God and then they said that they had just read the book, Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsh. My heart sank because I had just read the book. Conversations with God in the opening section, the author mentions that he felt as if he was writing by inspiration.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: In other words the ideas came to him. This is very common in occult circles. What the book says and I have quotes of course that I can back this up, but it says basically that you don’t have to worry about God’s will because God’s will for you is your will for you. He says the big illusion is the fact that God has a certain will that you have to find when all that He wants is what you want. So here’s an idea of God that brings God down to the common man that really says God is like us. And if you believe in a God who agrees with you about everything, you’re actually agreeing with yourself, all right?

Jim: It’s called a mirror.

Dr. Lutzer: It’s called a mirror. So what we have to do is to get back to the God of the Bible and that’s really my burden in this book to show how God is necessary for truth, how God is necessary for law and then the last chapter of the book I think is going to raise some eyebrows because it is getting back to the God of grace and wrath, not the God of unconditional love.

Jim: Erwin, so much of today’s conversation in the cultural space is about, well, your truth is good for you and my truth is good for me. I mean, again, it’s absurd to even say that. I mean, there’s gravity. Things fall from the sky. There’s science. Things happen the way of a predictable nature. Is it even close to the fact that we can’t know spiritual truth the way the world is talking about it today?

Dr. Lutzer: Jim, I can’t thank you enough for asking that question because in my book I have an entire chapter on truth or truthiness.

Jim: (laughs). Uh, yeah, truthiness.

Dr. Lutzer: Truthiness.

Jim: Is a better way to say that.

Dr. Lutzer: Something might be true, maybe sometimes it’s true. It’s not always true. It might be false, but it has some truthiness. Here’s what parents need to understand. They send their child to university or college and often times the children come back thinking very differently than their parents and their parents say, “What happened?” Well, this is what happened among other things. Truth no longer is something to be sought. You know, there was a time when you and I believed that truth was something that existed outside of us. We would have to seek it. We might disagree as to how to get there. We might even disagree on whether or not we did get there. But truth was objective. Now, according to Karl Marx truth is culturally conditioned, it is culturally constructed.

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So now we have teachers who tell their students, “What you have to do is to read texts,” but they’re all propaganda. What you have to do is to find out why is this person writing that? It’s to hang on to power. And so you have multiple readings even for something like the Constitution. And history oftentimes becomes not a search for facts but rather an opportunity for minority groups to express who they are. And here’s the bottom line. Truth now becomes something that resides in me and it becomes a matter of feeling. If you look at the LGBTQ plus community and its advances, it has advanced primarily because of feelings and compassion. Now, we should have compassion. Jesus had compassion on the multitudes.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So compassion is very important. But compassion cannot be the means by which we determine all truth, because we might be compassionate even toward evil things. So we’re living in a culture where therefore as you described it, you have your truth, I have my truth. And what happens by the way if our truth conflicts? Well, don’t worry about that because we’re living in an era in which you can live with conflicting truth. And what we have to do is to help people to understand is number one, truth has objectivity. Two plus two is equal to four and you can argue as Winston does in the book by George Orwell that it’s equal to five at times but that’s wrong. We all know that truth has objectivity. It exists outside of us. The other thing is that truth is truth whether we believe it or not. Fascinating story. The 18th chapter of the Book of John. Jesus is standing before Pilate and Pilate is asking him, “Who are you?” and so forth. And Jesus said I came to bear witness to the truth. Interestingly, Jesus didn’t say, “I came to Earth to make people feel better.” Although we would all argue that the gospel makes people feel better. “I came to bear witness to the truth.” Pilate says, “What is truth?” And you remember the story, he immediately leaves Jesus and goes and talks to the mob. Don’t you wish, Pilate had stayed there and listen to Jesus? Well, we know that Jesus made truth statements elsewhere, but here’s the point, Pilate learned that you can kill a man but you can’t kill truth.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: And Jesus is standing there as the truth with objectivity. And truth can be very offensive. A number of times in the gospel it says that when Jesus spoke to them, they were offended. But it is better to offend people lovingly of course but to offend them with the truth than it is to whisper lies to them thinking that that is more loving. I like to emphasize this that when it comes to love, when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, they didn’t stop loving. They just started to love the wrong thing, lovers of money, lovers of self, lovers of pleasure. So we must understand that when it comes to truth, all truth ultimately is rooted in God.

Jim: Right.

Dr. Lutzer: And when we begin there we begin to understand why it is then that we need God in our culture.

John: Hmm. Dr. Erwin Lutzer is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and we’re talking about some of the concepts in his book, The Eclipse of God. Uh, the subtitle is, uh, very descriptive, Our Nation’s Disastrous Search for a More Inclusive Deity (and What We Must Do About It). Get a copy of this book from us here at the ministry. Uh, you’ll find us at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Dr. Lutzer, let me clarify something. In the book you mention idolatry. I think those of us that have seen The Gladiator, we think of idolatry as, you know, little wooden statues that we create and we bow and worship to this thing. that’s not what you’re talking about with modern day idolatry. so give me a description or definition of what modern day idolatry looks like?

Dr. Lutzer: All right. I’ll go directly to the scriptures. Ezekiel chapter 14. These people have set up idols in their own hearts. So modern idolatry does not bow before the images but it bows to itself. It is really self that is the modern idol. And idols do have some value. Jeremiah talks about the idols. He says, “It’s like a scarecrow in a garden.” In other words it may cause some birds to fly away. The other good thing about an idol and the reason it’s so attractive is you control it completely.

Jim: Hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: You choose your idol and then you go for that idol, and you pretend that that idol is real and you take it from there. So we’re living in a culture undoubtedly that has taken man and put it in the place of God. And that of course is the ultimate idolatry. And as all of us know, that’s what happened in the Garden of Eden when the serpent said, “You can be like God knowing good and evil. You take the place of God.”

John: Hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: And we think for example of those who say, “I am God.” And, uh, (laughs) we smile and we say, “I don’t think that you are.”

Jim: You know, so often when I’ve encountered people like that, um, what screams at me is pain. Somewhere, something has happened where they have been profoundly hurt, maybe by a parent a father a mother whatever it might be. But as I’ve dug into many of the communities you’re talking about and talked with people, there’s a lot of pain in people that have rejected God. Somebody once said to me to an atheist he said, “You know for not believing in God, you talk a lot about God.”

John: Hmm.

Jim: “About how much you hate God, about how God can’t be real.” But what an interesting observation that a lot of the irritated non-believers spend a bit of time talking about a God they don’t believe in.

Dr. Lutzer: Yes, because it’s very difficult to Chisel God out of the human heart. You remember Augustine on the first page of his confessions where he said, “Thou hast made us for thyself,” and our hearts are restless until they find their all in the thee. But I find what you’ve said very interesting. What we have to do is to help people to understand that even if the church hurt them, even if their parents hurt them, ultimately truth is constant. And while that might be an excuse to avoid the truth, ultimately God is a God of Truth. And I’m sorry about your past. I hope that you can forgive your past, but at the same time just recognize that truth is still truth even if it is rejected.

Jim: In fact, uh, you illustrated a play on words with this idea that sinners are in the hands of an angry God. And you flip that, that God has been placed in the hands of angry sinners.

John: Hmm.

Jim: I mean, that’s-

Dr. Lutzer: That’s actually because of Jonathan Edwards sermon.

John: Hmm.

Jim: Yeah. I mean, wow.

Dr. Lutzer: Sinners in the hands of an angry God and today we have indeed God in the hands of angry sinners. I think that’s the way in which I-

Jim: Wow.

Dr. Lutzer: … talk about it in the passage.

Jim: I mean, that’s powerful, but what’s the net of that, and the way we get that wrong, and how we need to be careful about that expression?

Dr. Lutzer: Well, we have so softened the image of God that we have made him so tolerant of everything. And that’s why the subtitle of my book says America’s Disastrous Search for a More Inclusive Deity. We want a God who’s going to save everybody. We want a God who’s going to allow for all kinds of infractions without any judgment and yet at the same time as you and I agree that as even as we speak about the God and we speak about hell, we at the same time speak about the unbelievable grace of God and we point sinners to a God who is willing to forgive a God who sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive us of our sins, and to welcome us into Heaven as if we are Jesus, because we get there on the basis of His merit and not our own. We’ve all heard the song, clothed in His righteousness alone, faultless to stand before the throne.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: So what we have to do is to realize that even though God is a God of wrath. He’s not the God of popular culture. He is also a God of unmistakable, unbelievable grace. I have to add this, many people who sing the song Amazing Grace, I just want to say this that I think many of them have no idea what they’re singing about.

Jim: Sure.

Dr. Lutzer: Because they think they deserve grace.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: If you think that you deserve grace and have it coming to you, you do not understand grace. Grace is totally undeserved and yet we have a gracious God who is willing to forgive the vilest of sinners.

Jim: Yeah. Oh my goodness. Um, let me ask this, this idea of values within the culture. It seems that the greatest value in the culture is tolerance today. I mean, everybody lifts that up, um, really at risk of all the other more important values. In that context, um, we’re told to avoid offending others at all costs yet you’re arguing for the point that Christians should be willing to offend people. Now, I’m sure you mean that within the context of God’s love and those things, but how, how do we shift that gear being saturated in this idea that we need to be tolerant at all costs toward others and then say, “Oh, by the way Bob I’ve noticed something and I just want to as a friend point this out and let you deal with it like you want to but here’s what I’m observing.” How do we go about doing that?

Dr. Lutzer: Well, what we have to do is to follow the example of Jesus. He offended people. The Bible says very clearly He offended people. In the sixth chapter of John when He made some very hard statements, His disciples came to Him and said, “Don’t you realize that you offended people?” And Jesus didn’t care. Now, it’s not as if He didn’t care in the sense that He was hard-hearted but rather He was willing to offend people if they needed the truth. And of course as you and I know, the big challenge for Christians is how do we offend people but not be offensive.

Jim: Correct.

Dr. Lutzer: How can we make sure that it’s the truth that offends people and it’s not we who are offensive? I believe this as a pastor, you can preach on any hard doctrine that you want. At Moody Church at least on two occasions, I preached a message on hell. I could scarcely sleep the night before because it’s terrifying. It’s a doctrine that is not discussed today. I mean, when is the last time you heard of hell?

Jim: It’s avoided.

Dr. Lutzer: Yeah, it’s avoided. But we have to preach it with brokenness, with tears and with a redemptive mindset as Jonathan Edwards did in his famous sermon. And we have to urge sinners to come to Christ because He saves us as the Bible says from the wrath to come. So we exalt Christ. We show that He is the way, the truth and the life and we exalt what He has done. So even though this is terrifying over here, there’s good news here that you need to hear. So along with and maybe this answers your question, maybe it doesn’t, but along with the judgment, we always have to keep redemption in mind and we can’t just focus on one without the other.

Jim: You know, Erwin as we zero in on the end of this part two program, um, you make mention of the fact that we need to be go-to people for the culture. Now, one that should indicate that people will want to come to us to ask us what do you think. So I think my question is kind of a two-parter, how do we create that environment where people feel… It’s kind of like parenting. Do your kids trust you enough as a father or mother that they could come and be honest with you about what they’ve done? I mean, drinking, drug addiction, sex whatever it may be. Do they have, do you have that good a relationship with your child that they can do that? And then how do we extrapolate that to being that present for people around us in the culture, friends and family members?

Dr. Lutzer: Maybe I’m answering your question. I’m coming at it a little differently, but, you know, when we come to truth like John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life,” we have to explain to people that we ourselves are not perfect. If we come to people with a judgmental spirit putting ourselves on some kind of a pedestal, they will turn against us. No question about it. But if we come with a sense of humility, aware of our own need, it’s amazing how we are able to communicate truth to people. They may be offended, but at the same time they may respect us. So to pull that off is difficult, but that’s our assignment. So I think the main issue, Jim has to do with a prideful spirit, a prideful judgmental spirit that drives people away.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: We have to help people to understand we’re coming from a position where we are not perfect, but at the same time we have found hope in the gospel and they can come also where they are at to the same gospel and believe. And that’s what I think parents should do, that’s what I think pastors should do, but not to avoid the hard teaching of scripture, but at the same time to always make sure it is balanced with grace.

Jim: Mm-hmm. That is so good. Erwin, right at the end here, I want to talk about a scripture that’s particularly important to you in the Book of John. Uh, what was that scripture and why does it ring so true?

Dr. Lutzer: I’ve already referred to it, but we can’t refer it to it often enough. John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father but by me.” So here I am I’m witnessing and somebody says, “Well, I believe that this religion is just as good as this religion and so forth.” Why is it that Jesus made such an exclusive claim? And the answer is this. He’s qualified to do it. Read about all the other religions.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lutzer: And what you’ll discover is none claim that they can forgive sins. They teach us how to manage our sin, but nobody can say, “You are forgiven.” Only Christ has the authority to be able to say that because of what He did on our behalf and God receives what Jesus Christ did. Only Christianity has that, only Christ is qualified to say that. I love Christ. I know you do too.

Jim: Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, there is brokenness and pain in the culture that only Christians have the answer to. I know that sounds bold, but it’s true. Even though the world is full of chaos, we have nothing to fear because God is in control. And to our listeners and viewers, I hope you’ll take the opportunities around you to spread the Kingdom of God. If you are looking for some more insights into navigating the confusion of the culture, check out Dr. Lutzer’s book, The Eclipse of God. When you make a monthly pledge of any amount to the ministry of Focus on the Family, we’ll send you a copy as our way saying thank you for being part of the ministry. We are listener supported so your donations are what allows us to keep providing resources like this. Or if a monthly donation doesn’t work for you right now, uh, one-time gift is great and we will also send you a copy of the book for that one-time gift.

John: Mm-hmm. And once again, Dr. Erwin Lutzer’s book is called, The Eclipse of God: Our Nation’s Disastrous Search for More Inclusive Deity. Get a copy of the book when you call and donate today. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word, FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459. Or go online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.