Nick Stumbo and his wife, Michelle, describe how their marriage has been restored after he found freedom from a long-time addiction to pornography and the overwhelming guilt and shame that accompanied it. They offer encouragement and hope to troubled couples who are struggling with the impact of pornography and infidelity on their marriage. (Part 2 of 2)
John Fuller: This is John Fuller with Focus on the Family. And Jim Daly is traveling, but we’re gonna catch up with him by phone at the start of today’s program to talk about some really important issues on the Pro-Life front. You probably know that Senator Ben Sasse had a bill to protect babies who survive an abortion. That bill blocked in the U.S. Senate this week.
Well right now, what we’d like to do is introduce you to someone who did survive an abortion. It was forced upon her mom. And this woman is here only by the grace of God. Melissa Ohden is the founder and director of the Abortion Survivors Network. And they educate the general population and provide emotional, mental, and spiritual support to abortion survivors.
Jim Daly: Melissa, welcome to Focus on the Family.
Melissa Ohden: Thank you so much, Jim.
Jim: You know, I think given the Senate’s vote, recently, to not protect a child that was in your situation - a child that has survived an abortion attempt, and you’re laying there on the table, breathing, gasping, and now those in the Senate that didn’t support the protection that required a doctor to give and the medical practitioners to give life-saving treatment to that baby. Let’s move away from defeatist language and call it the baby, because it’s born and it’s outside the womb at this point. How did that make you feel?
Melissa: You know, I was there, actually, when the Senate voted. And so as much as I was disappointed in that, Jim, I honestly wasn’t surprised by that. You know, I think we’ve seen in the last few weeks in particular, that life is apparently a really partisan issue in our country - not that we didn’t know that. But it’s becoming even more so. So yes, it was discouraging. Yes, I’m disappointed in those Democrats that voted against protecting lives like mine. Um, but I also think it’s important that we really send our encouragement to our Republicans and those 3 Democrats that crossed the aisle and joined us, because um, they’re so committed to life, Jim. And they’ve left me with so much hope.
Jim: Yeah. Well the point you’re making - often I get the question, you know, “Why is that political?” I mean, we’re talking about life and death. It’s really not a political issue. It’s a moral issue that has found itself in the political arena because they make the laws. But how can a civilization that sees itself as rather progressive and enlightened, how do we take innocent life - a baby that’s born outside the womb, forget the debate of abortion, this is a baby who’s gasping for air like I described - and they’re willing to allow that child to die? That’s a whole ‘nother discussion now, correct?
Melissa: Yeah, to me, it is. You know, we’ve heard the same arguments, unfortunately, from those who vote against this type of bill, who say, “You know, this is completely unnecessary. This doesn’t happen.” And I’m literally standing outside of chambers with my medical records in my hand, saying, “Look at me. Here I am.” And honestly, Jim, I think we’re at a point right now where some of them really don’t care.
Jim: Yeah. You know, Melissa, another part of your story that’s so warm - heartwarming, is what happened with the relationship between you and your birth mom. These are the things that they can’t anticipate. They just think, you know, “Let’s take care of the problem.” And then, “We’re doing people a service.” But what’s happened with your relationship with your birth mom that again, politicians can never anticipate?
Melissa: Absolutely. I’m so glad you brought that up because no matter how many times human beings try to thwart God’s will in my life, right? First, by trying to end my life, then, you know, leaving me to die, trying to deny me medical care. Ultimately, in the end, God’s plan prevailed. I got to live. I’m perfectly healthy. And yes, I’m now united with my biological mother. She’s been in my life now for 6 years. We live in the same city. Um, she’s my one - one of my greatest supports in life. And so you’re so right when - when they’re denying lives like mine medical care, they’re thwarting God’s plan - not just for that child but whoever surrounds that child. Right?
Jim: Oh, it’s so true. And I think, you know what was interesting, and that was in California, my mom was 42 when she had me and my dad told me stories how she was considering an abortion then. Because even before Roe v. Wade, if you were over 40 years old, many states allowed you consider an abortion because of the high risk of the child having difficulties physically. Um, and she thought about it. And so even before Roe v. Wade, these things were occurring. And I - to some degree then - I was also a survivor. My dad talked my mom out of doing that. And I feel that same kind of intensity because the reason is, “Well, we couldn’t afford it.” We were a poor family. But my goodness, when you look at that, the Lord took care of those things. And I know it puts more stress on families, but like the relationship with your birth mom, people should not determine what your future will be. You and God will determine that, right?
Jim: I mean, it’s so true. Well listen, I don’t know that we’ve invited you yet, but I hope you can join us May 4th in New York. I’m gonna do it right here on radio. We’re gonna do something in New York.
Melissa: I - oh. You put me on the spot, Jim.
Jim: Yeah, puttin’ you on the spot. But May 4th - this is really funny, we’re calling it, “Alive from New York.” And the whole goal - we’ll have music and speakers and I hope you can consider coming and being one of those speakers - but we really - the keynote is going to be 4D, third trimester ultrasounds right on the big jumbo-trons in Times Square. And I simply want to show the world what the baby in the womb in that third trimester looks like. And I think the picture will speak a thousand words. We don’t even have to say much. What do you think about that?
Melissa: My 10-year-old is ready to go.
Jim: I love it. And that’s what we want: moms with their kids, and husbands and dads, too. Come on out and join us May 4th in Times Square. Let’s celebrate life and show the world what the Lord is doing in the womb through this wonderful ultrasound technology. Melissa, thanks for being with us. And thanks for that update. And I thank you for that fire in your belly.
Melissa: Thanks. God bless.
John: Well, I trust that you are motivated by this conversation that Jim had with Melissa and that you’re going to want to join Focus on the Family in being a voice for the voiceless. Sign our Declaration of Life. We are gathering signatures. We want you to sign it, to tell your friends to sign it. And uh, we wanna deliver that to the members of Congress and the White House so they know we value life. You’ll find the Declaration for Life at focusonthefamily.com/prolife.
Alright, let’s go ahead and hear the second part of our conversation with Nick and Michelle Stumbo. And please know you can get the entire discussion on CD or as a download at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
End of Excerpt
John: That’s Nick Stumbo describing his nearly 17 year addiction to pornography. And we heard last time, Nick grew up in a loving Christian home. He was a 3rd generation pastor, happily married, and yet he couldn’t overcome this ongoing sin.
Today on Focus on the Family, we’re returning to this important topic, and obviously, it won’t be suited for younger listeners. Your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller.
Jim: John, we had a challenging, I think, but meaningful conversation last time with Nick and Michelle. It was powerful stuff. And I believe this is a vital topic for the Christian community today. I know some of you may disagree, and you’re gonna write us or email us or even call us because you feel strongly that this should not be talked about publicly. But I think that attitude is exactly why we’re in the difficulty we’re in today, because we’re not willing to have open, honest dialogue about this oversaturated sexual culture that we’re in, even as believers. And how many are being caught by the ankle?
Last time, we used a statistic that showed - I think from Barna - 68 percent of Christian men struggle with this and 25 to 30 percent of Christian women. So this isn’t something that is just a few people. Just think of 7 out of 10 men in the church who are struggling with this. So it’s got that kind of seriousness that we’ve got to talk about it because we’re not honoring the Lord in what we’re doing. And so we have to first make ourselves aware of the fact that this separates us from God because, uh, it can’t stand. We won’t have the kind of vibrant relationship with the Lord that we should have and want to have if we have these stumbling blocks in front of us. So that’s the motivation. This isn’t about shame. This isn’t about, um, saying or doing things that upset you. It’s about becoming healthier in Christ so that we can have healthy, strong marriages that point to our faith in Christ to a culture that desperately needs Him.
John: And if this is a conversation that is really difficult for you to listen to, uh, you probably have some issues you need to talk through with somebody. If you’re not sure who that would be, uh, we have caring, Christian counselors here at Focus on the Family. They would count it a privilege to talk through some, uh, initial things with you and, um, connect you with resources and maybe even a counselor in your area so you can have some ongoing dialogue to explore this. That’s for you or anybody you know struggling with this. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY - 800-232-6459. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And last time, we mentioned that Nick Stumbo is the executive director of Pure Desire Ministries. He and Michelle and their staff help men and women navigate the issues of sexual brokenness and find healing and purity. And Nick has written a book called,. And, uh, of course, we have that at our website.
Jim: Nick and Michelle, welcome back to Focus.
Michelle Stumbo: Thanks for having us.
Nick: Yeah, great to be here.
Jim: Um, man, some difficult stuff, but, uh, the one thing just watching the two of you interact, you’ve really come a long way, you can tell - your love and affection for each other, even through difficulty, which I find the greatest point of hope for couples who are struggling with this. It’s natural, it’s, I think, reasonable to want to say, “I’m done,” whether you’re the wife that has suffered through an addiction by her husband or vice versa. It just seems like the easy way out. But I’m telling you, most couples that I have met that have fought through this battle have great intimacy emotionally, certainly physically, and spiritually. There’s something about fighting for your marriage in this way that there must be a sense of honesty that you both possess that really builds a better foundation than what you first had.
Nick: Yeah. Well, and it forces you to face all of your deepest issues, uh, as individuals and as a couple. And if you face them and work through them rather than run from them, uh, God does produce something even more wonderful. And we definitely refer to our marriage as before and after - you know, the 10 years before this process and the 8 years after. They’re so different. It is like night and day. It’s...
Nick: It’s the before and after.
Jim: Probably two different episodes...
Nick: It really is.
Jim: ...At least, if not two different types of marriages, right?
Jim: One that’s built on falsehood, the other built on truth.
Jim: And that’s a good thing. Yeah, in the book, you talk about the two Nicks. I think you describe it that way and - and the sinful Nick and the good Nick - you know, the one that wants to pursue the Lord and be holy and live a life that’s pleasing to Him.
Jim: What was God speaking to your heart in that moment about the two Nicks?
Jim: I mean, I think every man knows exactly what you’re talking about.
Nick: Yeah, I think we - I call it the “public me” and the “private me.” It’s like the me I want you to see and that I believe I am. And the private me is where I’m dealing with sin and brokenness and stuff I don’t like. Um, and the real danger, uh, in what I discovered is we can convince ourselves that the public me is the real me, that that’s the best version of us, that if we could just get rid of all this other junk, we could be that.
Jim: In fact, you asked God to destroy that private Nick.
Nick: Yeah, because it feels like somehow that’s not us. But I - I remember I was - I was out running and just feeling so broken by it and asked God to take it away. And it was one of those few moments in my life I just really clearly felt I heard His voice, not, you know, audibly, but just that whisper in my soul of saying, “But that’s the Nick I died for.” And to know that He loved me and that part of myself and to become open to the idea that maybe that broken, struggling part of my life was actually more authentically me than anything I was publicly presenting as this cleaned up persona was really an eye-opening part of this journey. And that is, as I look back to see how God worked through that, that all of that brokenness was actually revealing, um, where God’s design had been corrupted. And as He was able to bring in His truth in an experiential way and rewrite some of that faulty thinking, um, it really brought me alive. And what I feel happened - it begins to destroy that public me-private me divide. We don’t...
Jim: Yeah, I like that.
Nick: We don’t need to have both.
Nick: We need to be able to just be in public who we are in private and not fear that - that we’ll be rejected for it. We just need to be vulnerable and humble and allow God to keep transforming us from the inside out.
John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And, uh, our guests today are Nick and Michelle Stumbo. And as we’re talking about this topic, if it’s resonating with you, um, if sin has a hold of you, and you just don’t know where to turn, um, shine some light on it. Make a phone call. Uh, talk to us here at Focus. We have caring, Christian counselors. And our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. You can also find help and resources, including Nick’s book,at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
You’re describing a tension point. You’ve been touching on this for some time now in our conversation today. There’s Paul in Romans talking about, “You know, I’m a sinful man. I do the things that I don’t want to do. And I can’t quite straighten it all out.” Did you identify with Paul’s writing as you struggled, as you confessed, as you came back to that sin? What relationship did you have with that passage of Scripture?
Nick: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think Romans 7 describes the plight of anyone battling some sort of besetting sin. It’s like, it’s there, and the harder I try, it seems like the more it comes back. You know, and then declaring with Him the victory of who will set me free, thanks be to Jesus Christ, our Lord, who leads us in victory. And that hope of one day, I’ll really be able to say those words with conviction. Because one day, I’ll be free. One day, there will be victory. But right now, I’m stuck in the why do I do what I don’t want to do?
Um, and, in fact, that was part of when we shared our story with our congregation - um, referencing that passage to say, “I feel like I’ve lived this passage for a number of years, even as your pastor” and asked for their forgiveness, asked for their help in starting groups for men and women that struggled. And tried to create an environment to say this is the human predicament, not just for a few of us - that couldn’t we all look at our lives somewhere and say “In spite of my best intentions, I do the things I don’t want to do.” And it opens our eyes to see this isn’t about just pornography or sexual sin, but really where do we, as humans, get off the mark? And what does recovery and healing look like?
Jim: Hey, let’s get to the bow of the story because it’s so beautiful. 10 years - we’ve gotten to that point - all the angst - and I appreciate, again, your vulnerability to share that. Let’s talk about how the Lord tied this together when you did make that final decision to say “It’s done,” both of your reactions, the role that Pure Desire Ministries played in that regard, the one you now lead and took over from, I think, the founder.
Jim: Um, just describe that for us and the fact that you’re in a much better place now, you’re helping hundreds if not thousands of people with this, uh, sexual addiction problem. Tell us what happened.
Nick: Yeah. Uh, admittedly, I still was so minimizing. I didn’t think I needed it. But Michelle heard those same words of invitation to get help, and she knew we did. And so I took this intermediate step to go meet with a counselor friend in our district, um, who asked me, really, three life-changing questions. Because I said, “I don’t think I need - I just need a little bit of tips how to avoid pornography.” But he said, “Nick, let’s think about this. Number one, how long has this been in your life?”
Nick: So by that time, it had been over 15 years.
Nick: He said, “Okay, number two, how many times have you tried to stop?” And I actually chuckled because I said, “Well, every time’s been the last time. So I’ve tried to stop literally hundreds, if not thousands, of times.”
Nick: And he said, “Okay, and is it causing you or people you care about significant amounts of pain?” And I said, “Well, yeah, I believe if I don’t change my wife will leave me.” And he said, “Well, put that together, Nick. It’s been a problem for a while. You’ve tried repeatedly to stop and can’t, even though it’s causing you or people you love pain.” I said, “Yeah, that’s pretty good description.” He said, “Nick, that’s a clinical definition of addiction.” And I remember I sat back in my chair like he’d sucker punched me because I was a pastor. And I...
Jim: This was the first time it came together for you?
Nick: I truly loved the Lord with my whole - I mean, as much as I knew how to love Him - with my whole heart. And the idea that I could simultaneously be that and be an addict was as foreign to me as, you know, the German language would be if I tried to speak that. Like, that language was so bizarre. But when I allowed that to sink in, the openness of, “Maybe this is why I can’t just stop it on my own,” um, and gave me the willingness to go down and meet with Ted and Diane Roberts. And we got to go together, which I think was so important, that - that from the get-go, they worked with us as a couple, um, so we could deal with her - my wife’s pain and sense of betrayal and the lack of trust and then also the behaviors in my life.
Um, and we met with Ted and Diane Roberts and started to go through the counseling process. And probably the most significant thing they required of us was to be in a group, um, which I also did not want to do because I already had Saturday night services, and elder meetings, and small group. And who needs one more nightly commitment a week? But, uh, Dr. Ted said to me, “If you don’t do this, you won’t change.”
Nick: Because he saw the central role community has to play in recovery.
Nick: So I went to a group. Um, I didn’t like it at first. But, um, I found about eight or 10 weeks in, as we’re going every week, that one night as I was driving up - I’ll just tell this one part of the story, and then Michelle can kind of share hers. Uh, I was driving up to my group, and I realized I had been looking forward to it all week. I thought, “This is so bizarre. I’m going to a place where people know the very worst things about me. I’ve told them things I’ve never told anybody else, and I can’t wait to get there. What is going on?” And, again, it was one of those moments I heard the voice of the Lord just whisper to my soul. He said, “Nick, it’s the only place in your life you feel real.”
Nick: And I realized that was it, that everywhere else I was so involved in that public me that I felt like if people knew they’d reject me. But in that group, they knew the private me like no one else ever did. And I was a part of that group. I was loved and accepted. And it was that group that really, along with the counseling, created such transformation where I know didn’t have to posture or pretend anymore for love. And when you experience that from other people, that’s where I think I most deeply experienced the love of God.
Nick: That I’ve been a pastor for 10 years - and I knew knowledge-wise, head-wise all about the love of God. I could preach about it. But I don’t know that I’d ever really experienced it because of that voice of shame that said people would reject you. When I experienced the love from those other men, that’s where the love of God became real.
Nick: And so from then, marriage and ministry became ministering out of the love of God rather than ministering in the hope that I might achieve the love of God. And that was a night-and-day change for me so...
Jim: Well, and that’s the common phrase about being known. And that is the Christian life, that God loves you even though He knows you. And I think it’s hard for us to believe that He truly knows us. We try to hide those places...
Jim: ...Thinking that the Creator doesn’t know us.
Jim: I mean, it’s kind of idiotic to...
Nick: Or we know He knows. We just think He has a very disapproving opinion of most of our life.
Jim: Correct - even worse - He’s got the club. All right, Michelle, so your best day.
Michelle: So my best day - well, that was one of them, when Pure Desire came and they were up there telling about this program, I was bawling. My eyes were, like, big as a saucers. Like, this is it. Lord has answered my prayer today. Like, this is it.
Nick: There’s hope.
Michelle: This is what’s going to save our - my marriage. And then I look over. And he looks over at me. And I’m just, you know, crying. And to hear him not - like, not realize that he was gonna be all in...
Michelle: ...Was still kind, like, of surprising. Like, “Why wouldn’t you be running up there and, like, ‘pick me?’“ That was a big, important day. And then meeting with Ted and Diane was wonderful. I didn’t want to go to a women’s group, though. I had little kids at home. And...
Jim: You were both busy.
Michelle: I was thinking...
Jim: It’s so funny to hear you guys both talk like that.
Michelle: “...Why do I need a group? This is his problem...”
Michelle: ...You know? But then going through - it’s called Betrayal And Beyond women’s groups - and seeing all the other women there, all Christian women, whose husbands struggle with this. Or some husbands have left, but they’re there working on, you know, their stuff. And to hear all their stories - and all our stories are so different, but it all - we all feel the same pain. We all feel the similar...
Jim: Same material, same cloth...
Jim: ...But different stitch.
Michelle: It was just like, whoa. And just to see all of us feel so, like, not enough.
Michelle: And I think that’s just the way that Satan gets to us - is, like, “You’re not enough.”
Michelle: But we are.
Jim: You know, it’s impressive the way you highlight community and the importance of being vulnerable in a group where you can be real. I mean, that came through loud and clear the last few minutes and how few people actually experience that today in modern community. I mean, it’s just so fast. Everybody’s busy. “How are you?” “I’m great. How are you?”
Nick: And the nature of sexual sin - it isolates us.
Nick: And so when we try to fix it in isolation, that doesn’t work. And we want to be better and not have anyone know about it. But the pathway to being better is having other people know about it and be part of that journey with us.
Jim: Yeah. Talk to the length of time to get counseling to work on these things intentionally. What was that period of time like? How long was it with counseling and help?
Nick: Yeah. Initially, the - what I would kind of call the intense change process was about a yearlong of the counseling and being in groups. But the healing continues. You know, the second time of going through the group material, where I got to lead it in my church and help other men, I was still learning so much about myself because, really, that first year, in some ways, is like triage, where we’re stopping...
Michelle: It’s true.
Nick: ...The bleeding and the pain and figuring out how to arrest the behavior. You know, the behavior in my life actually changed very quickly. But the underlying issues - those things don’t change overnight. And so it was a full two to three years of working through performance and shame and guilt that occurred. And that’s what we really try to encourage people to see - is this change isn’t something you can do in a five-week study or read a good book, and you’ll be okay. And it’s funny to say that as the author of a book. But to really take the long view to see - if these are issues that developed in my life over years and maybe decades, it may take a year or two of intentional work to unravel what’s gone on.
Jim: Yeah. I mean - and I think that’s pretty fast-paced.
Michelle: And it’ll take the wife about two to five years to rebuild that trust. And...
Michelle: ...Work on it.
Jim: Boy, that’s encouraging and discouraging.
Jim: But it’s true.
Michelle: And I had to actually go out through book one twice because the first time, I was pretty numb.
Michelle: Like, I just wasn’t - I didn’t have much feeling. I think that’s how I coped with our struggle...
Michelle: ...Is I just numbed out to it all.
Jim: Yeah. And that, again, is reasonable. So that’s a process for the victim - in this case, the spouse...
Jim: ...Who’s experienced that. So - boy, this has been so good. I hope you, the listener - you have appreciated what Nick and Michelle have done here. They have laid their life out to maybe 2-3 million people through Focus on the Family. And that takes great courage. And I so appreciate it. And I’m telling you, John, our phone should be ringing off the hook for people who want to get counseling help. And I hope you’ll do that. You’re not gonna shock us or surprise us. This is us. This is humanity. This is what God is believing in us, that we can do better, live for Him in authentic ways.
And I appreciate your model. I really do. Nick, I can’t imagine the pressure you must have felt being the pastor, facing very straightforwardly this issue. And that takes incredible courage. And Michelle, I’ll give you credit. It takes more courage to be his wife, to be blunt...
Jim: ...And to suffer through that for 10 years.
Nick: She’s the real hero.
Jim: Yeah. And I - you know, I applaud you. And I would really - to the best of my ability - to encourage a wife particularly to fight for her marriage, not to give up...
Jim: ...That God is honored in fighting for it. And, you know, trying to make the right moves.
Jim: And he may be a rascal. He may have done some things that really hurt.
Jim: But get on that journey of healing. And man, I think when you go through that, you are a powerful couple for Christ because there’s no hidden nothing.
Nick: Yup. The enemy wins when we’re alone. But when we start to tell our story - and that’s why we do this. We tell our story because we know that if it brings other people out of hiding...
Nick: ...That the Lord can begin to win. And, you know, the enemy only can win it by subtraction, by one at a time, isolating us.
Nick: The Lord wins by multiplying healing.
Jim: That’s good.
Nick: And so the victory can come a lot faster.
Michelle: And I was thinking about the second - my second favorite part was when he disclosed to our church because it was all - I didn’t have to carry that burden alone anymore.
Jim: I bet it was an exhale for you.
Nick: A big sigh.
Michelle: ...To be like Galatians 6...
Michelle: ...Where we carry each other’s burdens together. So...
Jim: Well, isn’t that the way to do it? Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you so much.
Michelle: You’re welcome.
Nick: Yeah, absolutely.
John: And I hope you’ll take Nick’s words to heart and that you’ll seek help. If this has been one of those quiet, private things for you, a struggle that you just can’t imagine telling anyone, call us. And tell us. And start that journey in the light. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. And one of our caring, Christian counselors would count it a privilege to talk to you.
Jim: Hey, John, along with that - man, get a copy of this book,- what a great resource to have in your library, to read it especially if you’re battling with this - but maybe a friend. Who knows? Uh, this is that kind of resource that everybody should have at the ready for themselves or for someone they love and care about. And here at Focus, enter into ministering with us. Be a partner. And if you can give a gift of any amount, we’ll send you this book by Nick to say thank you for helping, literally, thousands of couples who are gonna contact us looking for help.
John: And you can visit focusonthefamily.com/broadcast to donate and to request your copy of. Or call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.
Well coming up next time, encouraging grandparents to pass on a spiritual legacy to their families.
Glen Schuknecht: I didn’t see that I had a problem. I thought that I had a hyper-sensitive wife. I felt that everybody else liked me fine. What’s her problem? Staff seemed to like me. Clients seemed to like me.
Jim: So I’ve got it together?
Glen: Then I come home...
John: And she’s crying?
Glen: ...And she doesn’t like me.
End of Teaser
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