Preview:

Debra Fileta: You start to really reveal who you actually are in connecting with people emotionally and spiritually. Like this is not… I’m not who I think you want me to be. This is who I actually am.

Jim Daly: Mm.

Debra: And learning to just become more authentic and vulnerable in a relationship.

End of Preview

John Fuller: Well, which season of relationship are you in? Is it spring or summer or fall or perhaps maybe a little more like winter? Uh, we’re talking today with counselor Debra Fileta on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly about ways that we can navigate every season of our relationships. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.

Jim: You know, I’m excited about today’s program, John, because, uh, it really will illuminate where couples are at. I remember Jean and I, when we were first dating, we started, I proposed, we started to do our premarital counseling. We were on the cloud. I mean, I couldn’t breathe without being around Jean, right?

John: (Laughs).

Jim: I lived in San Diego at the time. I remember driving her dinner to Orange County, 90 minutes each way. She worked at a vet clinic, and I knew she’d like this Thai meal at this Thai restaurant, and I’d go get it and bring it to her, and then just sit there and eat with her during her break and then drive 90 minutes back to San Diego. That was the best time of my life. And, uh, you know, you just wanna maintain that. It’s hard to maintain that attitude because of that infatuation. But I think today we’re gonna, I think, help you with, uh, staying engaged, hopefully, and kind of enjoying the warmth of those seasons of relationships, spring and summer. It’s a great place to live, but all of them have things we can learn from.

John: Yeah, they’re part of the human experience. And, uh, I’m so glad Debra Fileta is here. She’s a listener and viewer favorite, and she’s a wife, mom of four, married to John, and a licensed professional counselor. We’re talking, uh, about some of the concepts in her newest book, Relationship Skills: The Four Seasons That Will Make or Break Your Love Life. And we’ve got details about Debra and this resource on our website.

Jim: Debra, welcome back. So good to have you here.

Debra: Always good to be with you.

Jim: You know, let me paint a picture from the research that we’ve read. Um, Greg Smalley, who runs our marriage area, he and his wife, Erin, um, they are aware of research, which you are too probably, that 24% of couples in the church are in a marital crisis. There’s some conflict that is putting them in a bad place. That’s a quarter of the couples. And on the one hand, I appreciate that vulnerability that they answered the survey-

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: … that way. It should also be a wake-up call for pastors and the rest of us in the church that, A, if we’re in that place, we need to get help. B, if others are in that place, we need to be talking about the difficulties in marriage and the idea that it’s okay to hurt. We wanna get to a better place because of our witness for Christ, right?

Debra: Right.

Jim: We should be showing the world that we can have happy, good, solid, joyful marriages.

Debra: Amen. Relationships are the great revealer, aren’t they?

Jim: Mm.

Debra: They reveal what’s going on inside of us, and they often reveal what God wants to heal. And I think when all of these things come up, including a point of marital crisis, it is an opportunity to go deeper with our healing.

Jim: What do you see in those couples that make it possible to get to a better place?

Debra: If I had to give you the number one word, it would be ownership.

Jim: Huh.

Debra: Owning my weaknesses, sins, struggles, owning what I bring to the table, and starting to do it differently. Because when I’m just focused on the other person and what they’re needing to do differently, and what they’re doing wrong, I’m, I stay stuck. But when I can own, God moves me forward. When I can find my role, I now have some sort of control, and I can actually begin to do things differently.

Jim: That’s really good. And that’s what the book is about.

Debra: It’s interesting because as I’ve been working with couples now for almost two decades, I have seen that just like in nature, as nature walks through these four particular seasons, so do we in relationships. We walk through spring, summer, fall, and winter. Each season has a purpose. Each season comes with its own obstacles and its own opportunities. And if we lean in and learn from these seasons, we can actually become better as individuals and have healthier relationships as well.

Jim: Yeah. Let’s describe them, spring, summer, uh, fall and winter.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: Give us the definition.

Debra: Brief overview. The season of spring is the season of growth. It’s the season of new beginnings. It’s a season of attraction and connection. And you see life through a rose-colored lens, right? You, you, you know what it’s like to have the flowers blooming and blossoming. Then we move into the season of summer, where things get hot. Summer is the season of intimacy and deeper connection emotionally, spiritually, physically, but you can also get stuck in the heat of summer if you’re not careful. You can get burned by summer. We move into the season of fall, which is the season of conflict and communication. Fall is where your true colors start to shine through, you know?

Jim: (Laughs). That’s good. That’s good.

Debra: And you start really seeing that person for who they are, but that can come with conflict. And then we move into the season of winter, which I always say is the season of turning inward. It’s a season of hibernation. Um, but not only that, winter I have learned is also a season of disinfecting. God uses winter to disinfect the ground and get it ready for the season of spring. So even when you’re in a season of winter that feels cool, that feels apathetic, that feels frozen, there is hope that spring can come again.

Jim: Boy, that’s such a good analogy. Um, man, it, it just fits. I think when we get to heaven, one of the things, if we know in full, like Paul writes, rather than looking through the glass dimly, I think it’s gonna be the cycles that God put into the universe. All of it.

Debra: That we didn’t know about. (Laughs).

Jim: Yeah, that we didn’t know the importance-

Debra: I agree.

Jim: … of.

Debra: I agree.

Jim: That… And that’s even where Paul writes about nature. When you look at nature, you can see God in nature. I think that rhythm that you’ve identified in relationship, just like the earth going around the sun-

Debra: Right.

Jim: … there’s something there that God wanted us to see and made it that plain.

Debra: Yes.

Jim: You can see it in yourself. Let’s get into spring and we’ll go through all of the seasons, but I think John and I, uh, share this commonality that when I met Jean and you met John, you two, you and Jean did not have that, like, love at first sight, unlike John and I had.

Debra: Right.

Jim: … and looking at the two of you… What was going on there for you and John?

Debra: My first thought when I met my husband before I knew he was going to be my husband was he’s really tall and who wears long sleeve dress shirt with shorts? (Laughs).

Jim: Did you ever get an answer to that question?

Debra: No.

Jim: ‘Cause I’m with you.

Debra: No. But you know what he tells me now, he says, “Hey, I didn’t try to trick you. I was never a fashionable guy.” (Laughs).

Jim: Well, or he could have said it worked, didn’t it? (Laughs).

Debra: “It worked. It got you in the end.”

Jim: It made you think about him.

Debra: But it’s funny because, you know, you have this idea of what it’s supposed to be like when you meet the person that you’re gonna marry, that there’s gonna be writing in the sky or God’s gonna just say, “That’s the one,” and you’re gonna know. But even though John looked at me and thought, “I think I’m gonna marry this woman one day,” and I looked at him and thought, “What kind of fashion statement is that?”

Jim: (Laughs).

Debra: We both had to navigate through the four seasons of the relationship. We both needed to see what was really here. And each season reveals what you need to know in order to know whether or not this person is going to actually be a good fit. So it doesn’t really matter what you feel at the start of the relationship. What matters is what’s revealed through the seasons of the relationship.

Jim: That’s so, so good. You mentioned in the book that attraction certainly is powerful, and I think many psychologists have listed how that works. You know, you see somebody you’re attracted to, and then it goes to holding hands and so on and so forth into full emotional and physical intimacy, which is, for the Christian community, that’s where we wanna see that in the context of marriage, right?

Debra: Right.

Jim: Not just one-night flings, obviously. But that, that is how God has set up that attraction scale.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: And you can see it. It’s very predictable to where psychologists, counselors, you know the path and the pattern that usually happens. In that context, you said you and John described your own rose-tinted glasses when it came to your premarital counseling. Wh- what did that look like?

Debra: Yeah. You know, when we first got engaged and, and I will note that as we went through these seasons, my attraction toward him grew. You know, there’s different levels of attraction and physical attraction, emotional, spiritual attraction, all these things start to grow to the height of the point where we were engaged. And I remember going through premarital work and doing this assessment with our counselor. And he looked at me and he’s like, “Debra, you rated everything off the charts. Like this guy has no flaw.”

Jim: (Laughs).

Debra: Like you really are seeing this relationship through a rose-colored lens. And I was.

Jim: Mm.

Debra: Um, the reality of the hardships of a relationship had not yet hit. I was in full-blown spring, seeing everything through that lens of growth and attraction, and blossoming, and blooming. But reality is, spring is just one season of a relationship. It’s just one fraction of the relationship. And all of the other seasons actually add depth and meaning to the relationship. And we hadn’t gone through those quite yet.

Jim: Yeah. It’s such a, again, a great framework to understand human relationship. And it’s just a good way to look at it. And it gives you insight into perhaps where you’re at-

Debra: Right.

Jim: And where you wanna move from there to a better place or stay where you’re at if you’re in that spring/summer area. Uh, healthy give and take in relationships is essential. It’s a learned skillset, I think. I don’t know that we come into marriage with that ability. We probably have a modicum of it, and then we get better, hopefully.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: And I think the fallout, like our Hope Restored, which is where couples are struggling significantly, and that’s okay. Come as you are, just don’t stay that way.

Debra: Exactly.

Jim: And that’s where we can do so much work to help, uh, couples get to a better place. I know that’s what you do in your counseling. But you illustrate this beautifully with your experience of gardening.

Debra: Yes. I-

Jim: And so what ha… What’s going on there?

Debra: I’m a plant killer, unfortunately. And-

Jim: (Laughs). I am too.

Debra: I have not really mastered it yet. It’s funny because I, you know, typically I forget to water my plants. I just forget and move on with life and then they die because they did not get enough water. So John got me these succulents and he’s like, “Listen, Deb, you, you hardly have to water these. It’ll be fine.”

Jim: (Laughs). It’s called a cactus.

Debra: It’ll be fine. Just once a week, put a couple drops in. But I forgot if I did or if I hadn’t, and what I ended up doing was over-watering the plant, and then they also died. So as I’m going through this, uh, planting and, and the analogies are flowing in my mind, I realize that relationships are like a plant. You can kill a plant by giving it too little water, but you can also kill a plant by giving it too much water. And I think that’s something we don’t talk about enough in relationships when you’re doing above and beyond, um, in your relationships because you’re accustomed to giving too much, making excuses for the other person, enabling unhealthy behaviors. So just like in nature, we’ve got to learn that healthy balance of give and take in order for the relationship to grow as strong as it possibly can.

Jim: Uh, regardless of what season a marriage is in, it’s critical for us to identify those unhealthy patterns. I think you list, uh, a number of unhealthy patterns that I think for the Christian, we might see some spiritual benefit in there that we think this is the right spiritual tone to be giving-

Debra: Right.

Jim: To be caring, to be concerned, but there’s an unhealthy edge to that. Describe it.

Debra: Exactly. You know, one of the personality types I talk about of people who give too much is the rescuer. You know, maybe the rescuer, deep down, they believe that their goal, their role is to fix this person, to make them better, to rescue them from their sin and struggles. And some of the reason you become a rescuer is because maybe you come from a family where you were put in that position of rescuing.

Jim: You learn to be.

Debra: You learned to fix the problems. You learned to bring peace to the chaos because you had to. And interestingly enough, when we come to Jesus, that leaning does not go away. Those coping skills that served us in one season sabotage us in another season. If we don’t face them and address them and bring them into alignment with who God wants us to be, God doesn’t want us to be the rescuer because He is the ultimate rescuer. He is the Savior, not us. And so we don’t wanna bring that mindset into relationships because our relationships will quickly become unbalanced if we come in as the rescuer.

Jim: Yeah.

John: Hmm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Debra Fileta, and we’re talking about some of the concepts in her book, Relationship Skills: The Four Seasons That Will Make or Break Your Love Life. There is so much here to, uh, apply in your own marriage regardless of where you’re at. Get a copy of it from us today at the ministry. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: So u- under that category, those who give too much, it even sounds funny because it feels like the Christian life is about giving, always giving. But you mentioned the, the rescuer. You also have the pleaser and the insecure. Describe those two.

Debra: Yeah. People pleasers, you know? When our goal is to please man more than it is to please God, and we get in a role where we’re so focused on the needs of everybody else, but we neglect our own. And then the insecure are those who are looking for their value and worth to come from relationships. So they don’t want to rock the boat. They don’t want to upset you. They don’t wanna even speak truth sometimes because they want to feel loved and liked by you. Those are personality types that can quickly bring a lack of balance to a healthy relationship.

Jim: The pleaser skill one is pretty pervasive. I mean, I can tend to do that too. I wanna be liked. I think most human beings want to be liked. And then the question is where do we get unhealthy with that, um, attribute?

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: And then at the core of it with the pleaser, w- what am I gleaning from it versus my motive, my good motive for doing it? Like it makes me feel better-

Debra: Exactly.

Jim: … to please you.

Debra: This is where it gets unhealthy is that motive part where my goal isn’t to actually serve you. My goal is to get you to like me. So I’m gonna do whatever it takes for you to like me because I need you to like me to feel valuable about myself.

Jim: Yeah. Which at its core is manipulative, but we wouldn’t even necessarily know that.

Debra: You’re right. At its core, it’s actually selfish.

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: It’s like I’m doing this so that I can get something from you rather than my goal is to please God. Because if my goal is to please God, sometimes I’m not gonna be able to please you at the same time.

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: I’m gonna have to tell you a truth that you might not like, but God is the measuring stick, not your approval of me.

Jim: Yeah. In that insecure, uh, person under the, again, that category of people who give too much-

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: I would think with social media, that is at its all-time high, that insecurity. I think young people feel that. There’s a lack of understanding identity, you know, who am I?

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: And that insecurity that is driven by, oh, all the social media that I don’t look as good as that person.

Debra: Right.

Jim: I’m not as well-educated as that person. Whatever social media is portraying as the standard, it’s kinda like the old days of airbrush.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: I can’t be that person in the magazine.

Debra: Right. And sadly in relationships, you will live up or down to the level that you believe you deserve.

John: Mm.

Debra: And if you don’t believe you deserve anything because you’re not walking in your identity in Christ, you’re going to settle for a low-level relationship, an unhealthy relationship. Whereas if you believe God made me for healthy relationships, I am His heir, you’re gonna expect and require different standards in your relationship. So this is why our identity really does shape the type of person we engage with and how we engage with the people that we’re in relationship with.

Jim: And I think that idea of knowing your identity in Christ is becoming so critical for everybody.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: But man, especially young people, because I think if there’s an assignment for the parents, that’s like job one, help your child, teen, 20-something, understand their identity in Christ, because that’s the foundation in which these antidotes occur against these things that we face, right?

Debra: Absolutely. You attract people on your level of health, on your level of worth, on your level of value. And so if you think about it that way, we’re magnetic to certain people. And when we go out into the world not feeling good about ourselves, not having confidence in who God has made us to be, we’re gonna attract people on that level as well. So this is why it’s important as parents for us to instill that true identity in our kids, not because of what they do, but because of who they are.

Jim: Let’s hit those others, those that give too little, because again, this is really the out of balance human experience. So you’ve mentioned too much.

Debra: Yep.

Jim: Now too little. The cynic, the wounded, the empty.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: Describe each of those.

Debra: We’ll start with the empty, because I think a lot of people can relate to that. People who are feeling on E. They’ve got nothing left.

Jim: No fuel.

Debra: Life has taken it out of them. They’re stressed. They’re maxed out. They have few boundaries. And then when they come home, they feel like they’ve got nothing left to give, you know? And I think that is a lot of people today where they give their leftovers to their relationships, not because they want to, but because they’re truly not filling up in the proper ways. And so when you go into a relationship and you’re on empty, you’re going to make a bad partner because you’ve got nothing left to give in your relationship.

Jim: Well, talk about that in the context of marriage.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: You know, that you’re giving everything outside the walls of your home and then you have nothing inside.

Debra: Right. And God calls us to be filled. God calls us to live abundantly. Jesus modeled to us boundaries and protecting what matters, staying filled and fueled in many different ways and practicing soul care so that when we walk home, when we’re home in our, with our family and our marriage, which is our primary ministry, that we have something to give in a significant way.

Jim: Let’s hit the, the cynic.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: Oh, I love this person.

Debra: The cynic is the type of person who has been hurt in relationships. They don’t really trust you, you know? They, they either don’t trust you because you are, you haven’t proven yourself, they don’t know you, or they don’t trust you because they know you and you haven’t proven yourself. You know, they, no matter who you are, they’re not gonna trust you. And, and usually it’s people who have been hurt in the past. And so they sort of, um, put this wall up in relationships.

Jim: For protection.

Debra: For protection. It’s like, I don’t know. You might hurt me. I’m not sure if I can fully trust you because I’ve been hurt in the past, so I’m gonna keep you at a distance and I’m not going to give as much as I could.

Jim: And finally, that third one, the wounded.

Debra: The wounded is the person that’s been hurt. And we, you know, somebody who carries triggers and wounds that they haven’t healed. And so they stay away from relationships so that those wounds don’t get pressed upon. Um, they don’t wanna feel pain. And so they avoid the intimacy that comes with a relationship. They avoid the vulnerability and they kind of seem withdrawn-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Debra: … in a relationship. And so when you think about those personality types, you realize that you can give too much and destroy a relationship and you can give too little and destroy a relationship.

Jim: Yeah. That does seem to be a theme scripturally that the Lord, you know, even that, I think it’s in Proverbs where, “Don’t give me too much that I forget you, Lord, and don’t give me too little that I have to go beg and steal.”

Debra: Hmm.

Jim: And I, I, you can apply that emotionally too.

Debra: Absolutely.

Jim: You know? It’s that same thing where you’re just out of balance.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: And I think, I think that’s the thing I’ve learned about the Christian faith is the Lord wants… He wants you to laugh. He wants you to have fun. This is your, your gift of life. We get one shot to live a life and hopefully can do that in the best of ways that we’re not out of balance.

Debra: Right.

Jim: And that we can end this life in our last days healthy in Christ, right?

Debra: Yeah. So the season of spring is really about taking that assessment. Where do I need to give a little bit more? Where do I need to pull back a little bit?

Jim: It’s good.

Debra: Where do I need to ask for my needs to be met? And bringing our relationship back into alignment.

Jim: Right at the end here, let’s make sure we get summer covered and then we’ll come back next time for fall and winter.

Debra: Yes.

Jim: But summer sounds like a great place to be. (Laughs).

Debra: Summer is the season where things get hot. It’s the season of intimacy, emotional intimacy, spiritual intimacy, physical intimacy, and learning to make the most of each season. Uh, the beautiful thing about this book, Relationship Skills, is it applies to married couples, but it also applies to those who are in the dating world.

Jim: Sure.

Debra: Um, and kind of helps you unpack it no matter what stage you are in in your relationship.

Jim: And again, these seasons, as you’ve mentioned in the book, they don’t run like with the seasons of the earth. You’re, you’re going through some of these rapidly-

Debra: Right.

Jim: … you’re coming back to those times.

Debra: Right.

Jim: It just, it helps you put a context to what you’re feeling, right?

Debra: Exactly. Exactly. It helps you have an awareness. It helps you know what to look for. It helps you identify some of the, the opportunities for growth that come in different stages of the relationship.

Jim: Now with respect to summer, you mentioned in the book a funny analogy with your sports jerseys.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: (Laughs). How do you connect summer, the heat of the moment relationally with sports jerseys?

Debra: Well, sometimes you become who you think you’re supposed to be in relationships. And I was going through my old jerseys and I remember this-

Jim: I’m impressed you had old jerseys.

Debra: I know. I passed them all down to Eli, my son. And it’s funny because I look back at that season and I thought, was that who I actually was or was that who I thought I needed to be, to be liked, to be desired, to be wanted in that season? ‘Cause I’m so far removed from that today. And I think oftentimes, um, we become who we think people want us to be rather than who we actually are, rather than who God made us to be. And in the season of summer, um, this is the time where you start to shed the layers. Uh, you start to really reveal who you actually are in connecting with people emotionally and spiritually. Like this is not, I’m not who I think you want me to be. This is who I actually am.

Jim: Mm.

Debra: And learning to just become more authentic and vulnerable in a relationship.

Jim: Let me ask you about emotional connection. You talk about summer also being that time of emotional connection that-

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: … is so good. I think, again, I’m gonna stereotype. Husbands generally can struggle with emotional connection. I think we get the physical connection down really well. It’s the emotional connection some of us are just lost in because we don’t-

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: “Hey, I said I love you.”

Debra: Yeah. Uh, you know, I always say it’s a conditioned experience. It’s how we’ve learned to show up in the world or not learned to show up in the world. And if you think about how little boys in the 40s, 50s, and 60s grew up, there wasn’t much conditioning toward emotional connection, emotional awareness. And so we do have a generation of men who are, uh, disconnected from some of those things and having to learn some of these relationship skills. Emotional connection is like a spider’s web. With each string, you’re building an attachment to the person in front of you.

Jim: Mm.

Debra: And I think that’s an important way to think about it in marriage. It’s with every conversation, with every interaction where I’m choosing to go a little bit deeper, share a feeling, share an experience, I am connecting. I’m building a web of emotional connection, which strengthens the relationship as a whole. But that’s a skillset that many people have not learned how to do.

Jim: Yeah. That, that is so good. And again, it gives it great context to understand this, make it, it makes it easier to kinda understand where you’re at. Take that self-assessment. Where am I? Summer? Spring?

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: Fall? Winter? We’re gonna talk more next time about those, but, uh, especially fall and winter. But thanks for being with us. This is, again, this has flown by the time, but, uh, let’s come back and keep it going. Can we do that?

Debra: Sounds good.

Jim: And let me turn to the listener. If Debra’s book, Relationship Skills: The Four Seasons That Will Make or Break Your Love Life would be a help to you, get ahold of us. I mean, we’re not… We’ll get it out to you. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you. $5, that will barely cover the postage, but we’ll get it out to you, um, as our way of saying thank you for being in the ministry together. If you could do more, obviously, we can reach more people.

But no relationship should stay the same forever. We’re growing. We have these seasons in our relationships that we need to be mindful of. So contact us. Last year alone, half a million marriages were strengthened through the Focus on the Family resources. I’m really proud of that.

John: Yeah. So reach out today, donate as you can, help us reach even more people. Our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

And then online, we’ll have Debra’s book and an opportunity for you to give also a, a free marriage assessment, which covers a variety of aspects of your relationship. It’s, uh, maybe five or 10 minutes of your time. It’s gonna give you hours of conversation with your spouse, and we’ll link over to that on our website. And that site is focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or give us a call, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

And thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Debra Fileta, and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.

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Part 2:

Preview:

Debra Fileta: And so if you’re in a season of winter, don’t lose heart and think about, “Oh my goodness, how are we gonna navigate back through fall and through summer? And is it even possible to get through spring?” Winter is the season of doing the work so that spring can come again.

End of Preview

John Fuller: That’s Debra Fileta describing ways you can navigate the inevitable ups and downs of marriage and relationships. Welcome back to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: You know, John, last time we covered the different seasons of relationship. Actually, we covered two. We’re gonna cover the other two today. But spring and summer, and it was such a wonderful insight into how to frame our relationships, whether it’s marital or parenting or friend group or those acquaintances at church you might know. It’s just a really good way to see how God has created us. You know, it says in the Word that God created us for relationship.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: It’s probably one of the most unnoticed things that we need to concentrate on. I think we concentrate on salvation in Christ and how to live a spirit-led life. Those are tremendous and important, critically important. But He also built us for a relationship. What about that scripture says, “Think more highly of others than yourself.” The golden rule.

John: Mm.

Jim: Wow. Are we applying things there? I think, I think we need to. And Debra does a wonderful job at helping us better understand it.

John: And, uh she shared from, uh, her newest book called Relationship Skills: The Four Seasons That Will Make or Break Your Love Life. Uh, we have copies of that here at the ministry. Stop by our website to learn more. And of course, if you missed the previous show, uh, don’t fret. We have, uh, audio copies here. You can contact us. Download our app and have, uh, the programs on the go. And, uh, we’re also on YouTube.

Jim: Debra, welcome back. It’s so good to have you.

Debra: Always good to be with you.

Jim: You know, it’s so fun, and I mean this for the listeners and the viewers. You just bring power packed information for us. We can all learn so much from what you’ve written and, you know, what the Lord has shown you. So thank you for that.

Debra: Well, thank you.

Jim: It, it’s diligence. I mean, you have to put time into it. Writing a book is not easy for those that haven’t done it. Yeah. I mean, it is time-consuming and you wanna be thoughtful. So thank you for that effort.

Debra: Well, it is a privilege.

Jim: Yeah, it is really good. We left off, like I said, we covered spring and that infatuation stage, and then the hot heat of summer. And you mentioned at the end of the program last time just how you’re exposing yourself more in every way in that summer heat, uh, you know, emotionally, physically, et cetera, especially in the context of marriage, obviously. Let’s move into fall. Uh, let’s get those out of the way and then we’ll come back and cover some more ground. But what is fall about?

Debra: I always say that in fall, you start seeing things in HD.

Jim: Okay.

John: (Laughs).

Jim: (Laughs).

Debra: All of a sudden, the rose-colored glasses are gone, and now I’m seeing everything in high definition.

Jim: Can I give an example just to help? ‘Cause in my own life, you know, I, I love, I joke pretty constantly.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: And I think my fall awareness was Jean going, “Yeah, you’re not as funny right now.”

Debra: She used to love your jokes.

Jim: She used to laugh at everything I said.

Debra: And now it’s like, “All right, Jim.”

Jim: But that’s an example where-

Debra: Yeah, exactly.

Jim: … anything, too much of anything is fall.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: (Laughs).

Debra: And we’re seeing things through a different filter now.

Jim: Mm.

Debra: We’re seeing things, um, in the details, in the fine details. And sometimes actually we can see too much to the point where everything our partner does, and even the things that used to draw us to them are now irritating and annoying, and now we’re struggling with some of those differences. A big thing that I talk about through the season of fall is compatibility.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Debra: And all of a sudden, all of your differences are clear. Maybe in spring and in summer, you were focused more on your similarities, and now your differences feel really intense and extreme, and you can have a hard time navigating the season of fall. This is why a lot of people say, “Well, maybe I married the wrong person-”

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: … In that season of fall when all those struggles start to come up to the surface.

Jim: Right. It moves into intolerability.

Debra: Right.

Jim: Which is very interesting. I think that’s where the enemy, and our own flesh begins to plant those seeds of doubt, like you said. And I think as we’ve counseled people here at Focus on the Family, the fall season is when you start thinking, “Maybe I need a divorce.”

Debra: Right. A lot of people do struggle. And there’s different parts of compatibility and different areas where we can find ourselves butting heads, you know, whether it’s personality differences, lifestyle differences, culture differences, education differences. We can list so many different areas that can become sticking points. But one way that I like to think of compatibility is not how much do we have in common. Compatibility is more our ability to come together in our differences.

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: It’s an ability. Compatibility is actually a skill. It’s an ability to be able to learn from you and to be able to come together in the areas that we are different, whether it’s our financial perspective, whether it’s our personality, and learning to see the other person as an asset, as a blessing and a resource rather than a burden.

Jim: Yeah. So you wrote the book. I’ll ask you for an example of how you and John have managed incompatibility.

Debra: Yeah. Honestly, this is a really clear example in our marriage because even on this conversation of chill to extreme and intensity, uh, he’s more chill, I’m more intense. Like “let’s change, let’s do this, let’s grow, let’s, you know,” and learning that neither of those sides are in and of themselves good for a marriage. It’s like the gas and the brakes. You can’t just go, go, go, go, go without pulling back and stopping, but you can’t just always be on brake and expect your relationship is gonna move forward.

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: And so finding that balance looks like us learning to see the other person’s personality traits as an asset, as a blessing. And also over the years, we’ve been married for almost 20 years, and I think one of the most, the greatest lessons has been learning to learn from one another.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Debra: Uh, me learning to become more chill and laid back.

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: Him learning to become more intentional i- in our relationship. Learning from each other is-

Jim: Yes.

Debra: … has really been one of the greatest gifts.

Jim: You know, Jean and I have talked about that. We both feel like we have melded into better different people and we’ve gleaned some of the better attributes from each other.

Debra: Exactly.

Jim: Which is a good thing.

Debra: It is a very good thing. And to me, that is the goal of the season of fall. It’s our ability to come together, to create compatibility even in our uniqueness and even in our differences.

Jim: But I would say some of that comes with that grind. You know, you’ve got to have some adversity to better understand fall, I think. In fact, you said navigating conflict during the fall season is critically important. You named seven, uh, areas to be mindful of. I’ll list them, but prepare for it. Don’t fear conflict. Know your style. Understand before being understood. That’s a good one. Empathize. Set boundaries. And then number seven, get to the roots. So why don’t you, you don’t have to hit them all, um, but touch on things that are important to you as the writer.

Debra: Yeah. So here’s a really good framework when you’re navigating conflict. Uh, start with what the person is feeling. And if you’re the one that’s sharing, “I’m feeling hurt by X. This happened and it really hurt my feelings.” If you’re the person that’s listening, take that in and then try to repeat it to them in a way that shows them that you really listened. Uh, “What I’m hearing you say is you feel hurt because I didn’t call you when I said I would, and you’re not feeling like a priority to me.”

Jim: Debra, for the couples that are tipping into this conversation that are in some trouble, some level of trouble, this quote that you mentioned in the book from Dr. Les Parrott, who’s been on the broadcast many times, Les and Leslie, but you quoted him as saying, “Conflict is the price we pay for a deeper level of intimacy.” That’s such a great promise-

Debra: Yes.

Jim: For the turbulence you’re in.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: But is it true?

Debra: It is true. It is a price. We can’t pretend that conflict doesn’t come at a cost. It’s uncomfortable. We don’t wanna navigate through it. It’s hard. It takes a lot of energy out of us, but it is an invitation. It is a pathway to deeper intimacy. When you think about the relationships that you have that don’t, have never had conflict, they’re usually pretty surface level relationships, you know?

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: But the ones where we’re getting deeper in relationships, the ones that are becoming more significant, we have to navigate through conflict.

Jim: In that context for that couple, that promise that we’re talking about, how do they see the trees through the forest though? ‘Cause the emotions of the moment is in the fall, “I married the wrong person. This is not going anywhere. I’m so frustrated. He does not meet those needs for me.” I mean, whatever you can fill it in.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: How do they stop and go, “Okay, this is adversity. I heard Debra talk about it. This is gonna be good.”

Debra: (Laughs).

Jim: I, it’s just so opposite.

Debra: It is. It is.

Jim: So how do you slow down enough to look at it as a positive? And now what do I have to do to get there with my spouse, with my teenager? Let’s just throw that one in.

Debra: Right.

Jim: Or whomever in my life that I’m having this conflict with. How, how do you set your mind up to be victorious?

Debra: Yeah. Always begin with the end in mind. You know, even when you’re working out and you get to a point where it’s painful and difficult and uncomfortable, it’s like, well, what’s the end goal here? The end goal is deeper relationships becoming better. And I think a theme that I tell myself over and over again as I’m in the midst of conflict is what is God revealing that He wants to heal in me? What is God revealing that He wants to heal in me? And when I take that as the ultimate goal, I can receive conflict, I can engage with it, and I can see it as a pathway towards something better.

Jim: I wanna highlight though what you said so we don’t miss it, in me.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: Not in you.

Debra: Right.

Jim: I know what God needs to heal in you.

Debra: (Laughs).

Jim: That is not a good place to be, right?

Debra: Right.

Jim: Why is that a, a major roadblock to healing as a couple?

Debra: Well, first and foremost, it’s because you cannot change the other person.

Jim: Right. (Laughs).

Debra: You cannot heal them, but you can influence them when you begin to heal, because relationships are like a recipe. And when you change your ingredients, it changes the entire recipe.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: The transparency factor is so critical. And again, I mean, right from the Garden-

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: Adam and Eve, we did this. It’s in our nature to hide.

Debra: Yes.

Jim: We cover up. We blame each other. “Why did you do this?” “Well, the woman you gave me,” right?

Debra: Right.

Jim: And so how do we avoid the blame game and become more transparent and honest?

Debra: The thing I love about the season of fall is that there’s nowhere left to hide.

Jim: Mm.

Debra: The leaves have fallen off the trees now, and it’s like, ah, there’s nowhere left to hide. And you get a point, to a point in your relationship where you have to choose to be fully known, that there are no secrets, that everything is now on the table with my spouse. And that leads to deeper levels of intimacy. You’ve heard the phrase being fully known so that you can be fully loved. And I think this really matters when it comes to the context of our relationships. And a lot of couples, they don’t live like this. There’s a lot of places in their life that are kept in the dark, that are kept secret, that they feel ashamed to expose, whether it’s things from the past or things in their present.

And the goal is creating a safe place so that you can share, so that you can be fully known and connect with your partner in the way that God intended. That was God’s intention from the beginning in the Garden, is for us to be fully known. And, and I truly believe we can replicate some of that in our marriages.

John: Mm. It takes good resources to do that though, and, uh, Focus on the Family is here for you. We have so much to help you. Uh, of course, we have Debra’s book, uh, that we’re talking about today, Relationship Skills: The Four Seasons That Will Make or Break Your Love Life.

Uh, we’ve got information about our Hope Restored marriage intensives.

Um, we’ve got a marriage assessment.

The beginning point would be to call 1-800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by our website. That’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Debra, we saved the worst for last.

Debra: (Laughs).

John: (Laughs).

Jim: It’s not normally how we say that, but winter. Um, this is where couples are feeling distant and cold toward each other. What are clear signs that we’re in winter?

Debra: Yeah. Winter can come with a really intense feeling that things have frozen over, that there’s a lack of love and connection, but they can also come with a more dangerous feeling of apathy.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Debra: And apathy is more dangerous because it’s like that subtle frost. It’s not very obvious, but it’s still deadly.

Jim: And kills the fruit.

Debra: It’s still destroying the relationship. Exactly. There was a fr- a frost just last week in Pennsylvania, and I had planted a bunch of flowers because it was 80 degrees the week before. And that frost quietly overnight destroyed all of those plants. And it’s the same in our relationship. Some people are like, “Well, there’s nothing majorly wrong here. We’ve been married for 40 years. Everything’s fine.” But is that what God wants for your relationship? Does God want apathy or does He want connection? And so I think frost sometimes is even more dangerous because it makes us think that everything’s okay when really we’re far from the point where God wants us to be in how we love each other.

Jim: Yeah, it’s interesting. Even in a winter storm, you know, here in Colorado, we can get three feet of snow, and everybody hunkers down. My sister used to manage a grocery store out here. She said it’s so weird the day before w- when we get that kind of weather forecast-

Debra: Oh, yeah.

Jim: Everybody comes in for guess what?

Debra: They’re preparing.

Jim: Toilet paper and milk. (Laughs.).

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: She said it just flies off the shelf. And it is kind of interesting when bad weather hits like severe weather, we tend to pull together a crisis, whatever it might be, something in our marriage. That light frost-

Debra: Right.

Jim: … is what kills us.

Debra: I agree.

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: And so something for us to be on the lookout for. And I also think you just used a really good word, prepare. We all need to be prepared that a winter season will come in our marriage. And not only will it come, it should come.

Jim: Mm.

Debra: Because winter has positive benefits too. Winter is the season of turning inward, of asking myself where I need to heal and grow and change. Uh, God made winter to disinfect the ground. Without winter, we wouldn’t be able to have the fruitful gardens and farming that we have in spring. And so winter is really significant because it has a purpose. And so if you’re in the season of winter right now, I think the question is what is the Lord wanting to disinfect to heal-

Jim: Wow.

Debra: … In this relationship? I think winter is a season that every couple will pass through, but the invitation is not to stay in winter.

John: Mm.

Debra: It’s a season to be passed through knowing that if you do the right things, plant the right seeds, prepare the ground, spring can and should come again. And that’s the hope that we have-

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: Is that even in winter, we know it’s not the final season. Seasons are meant to cycle through.

Jim: Yeah. I get so excited with spring, especially here in Colorado.

Debra: Yes.

Jim: You know, because we, we come through usually tough winters.

Debra: Right.

Jim: Not all of them are tough, but normally they are. And I’m tired of it being, you know, 10 below or zero. And then you get the first warm day and you’re going, wow, okay, it’s coming. It’s around the corner.

Debra: And what if you appreciate spring even more because you’ve gone through winter? You know, it’s like in, in your marriage, when things start to turn in the right direction, when you start to treat each other better, when you start to heal, it’s like, wow, God is doing something, something here. And spring can be even better than it was-

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: … in the early cycles of our relationship.

Jim: You know, uh, with our Hope Restored, I think thematically we see many, many couples who are just passing through the end of fall or deep in winter.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: It’s just the nature of it. Something is motivating them. And I’m so thankful to those folks who have said, “Yes, we’re gonna try.” Now, oftentimes we hear, “This is our last attempt to save our marriage.” That’s really common.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: Or they have divorce papers already in hand or signed. I mean, it’s amazing. And that program has a, an 81% save rate based on going back to each couple two years later. It’s phenomenal.

Debra: It is.

Jim: But as a counselor yourself, especially looking at the Christian community, we have the ability to get through winter.

Debra: Yes.

Jim: But some are not making it. They’re the Donner Party. You know, they’re going through Lake Tahoe in 12-foot snow as pioneers and they get caught. How do we as Christians particularly read the weather pattern of our marriage and know what to do instead of walking into the storm that will kill us, kill our relationship?

Debra: I think the first thing is we need to reframe how we view winter, because for some people, they think it’s the end of the journey. It’s like, I, I have to go back through fall and then I have to go back through summer and then I have to get to spring again. That feels impossible. But that isn’t the journey.

The journey is to get through winter in order to reach spring again. And what these couples need to realize is some of the strongest relationships that I have seen have just come out of winter because they’ve learned to do things better. They’ve seen their mistakes. They’ve healed their wounds. They’ve went back to their childhood traumas and done the work that had never been done before.

Jim: Mm.

Debra: And their spring feels better than ever. And so if you’re in a season of winter, don’t lose heart and think about, “Oh my goodness, how are we gonna navigate back through fall and through summer? And is it even possible to get through spring?” Winter is the season of doing the work so that spring can come again. I see it every day. And, and so do the retreats that you’re doing.

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: A- and really what it comes down to is a commitment to healing what I need to heal, because my healing and my health overflows into the life of my relationship. Uh, when I think about this, I think of Jesus in Matthew 7, where He says, “First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”

And, uh, to me, that there is permission to remove the speck from my brother’s eye. Sometimes I need to confront you and ask you to change and give you what I’m experiencing and tell you my needs, but not before I do the work in myself because then, then I will see clearly to be able to bring you what I need to change and adjust and fix. And so to me, that’s the formula for moving out of winter and into spring.

Jim: Yeah. And you know, in that overstatement that I would make there, what the Lord is saying is humility.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: You know, remove the plank from your own eye before you go after the smaller thing in your brother’s eye.

Debra: Right.

Jim: ‘Cause you’re no different than the other guy, buddy.

Debra: Right.

Jim: Right? Or your wife, right?

Debra: And, and-

Jim: You all fall short.

Debra: And when there’s a plank in your eye, you can’t see clearly.

Jim: Right.

Debra: When you’re unhealed, when you’ve got wounds, it’s really hard to see clearly what the other person needs to change and adjust and heal.

Jim: Yeah. It, it’s so beautiful in that way, but it does take humility. I remember one time Jean said to me a few years ago, but she said, “I love you. I don’t like you right now.” And I was like, “How could you not like me? The extrovert.”

John: (Laughs).

Jim: And it was that, that intimacy thing, I think, when I get down to it, it was too superficial.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: She wanted something deeper.

Debra: Right.

Jim: Like, I don’t know you. And that, I had to really think about that. How do I work on that to be less flippant, deeper emotionally, so she could know me?

Debra: Right.

Jim: Right? So those are the ways to process that and, uh, to do better. You know, I do wanna ask you, we’ve talked about this in the context of human relationship, marriage, friends, family, raising your teens, et cetera, relationship. All those will stress you in different ways.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: But our relationship with Christ, does this apply in that way too?

Debra: It seems that it does, doesn’t it?

Jim: I think so.

Debra: You know, as we enter relationship with Jesus and we’re on fire and everything’s exciting-

Jim: Spring.

Debra: The season of spring, you see things through a rose-colored lens. And it’s growth. You’re in God’s Word every day. And then the intimacy and the depth of summer, right? Just that passion. And then you get to fall where conflict and crisis and trauma, and you start to question and you start to see the incompatibility.

Jim: Your friend dies of cancer.

Debra: Something really hard happens.

Jim: Your child dies of cancer.

Debra: Right. Your marriage is struggling. You walk through an injustice. There’s difficult things that make you question if God is who you thought He was. But I also believe in the same way, that conflict leads to deeper intimacy with God. That wrestling invites us to a deeper intimacy with the Lord. And I have seen that to be true in my own life. Um, a- and it’s a beautiful thing.

And sometimes we find ourselves in a winter season where we feel apathy. We’re not as excited as we used to be. Life has gotten hard and there’s so many burdens and, and we’ve kinda just allowed ourselves to slowly drift into that frost season. But the hope is that spring can come again. The hope is that winter is a season to be passed through. We’re invited to pass through winter. We’re not encouraged to stay.

Jim: Yeah. Debra, I need to ask this for the person who is suffering, and it could be anything, but their relationship with the Lord is in a winter place. They may be shaking their fist at the Lord saying, “I trusted you. I thought you loved me.” Typically, we’re experiencing that transactionally.

Debra: Right.

Jim: Like, “Lord, I’ve done all the right things. Why would this problem, this situation fall upon me? I thought you cared about me and you could keep it from happening.” Speak to the soul of that person because that is the fork in the road for so many.

Debra: Yeah.

Jim: That is where they may turn their back on the Lord.

Debra: Right.

Jim: Or they go deeper with the Lord. What’s the difference? How, what do you see as a counselor that makes the difference in that moment in a person’s life?

Debra: I think it’s our framework, our belief system, our underlying view of God. You know, and even as you’re walking through loss and grief and struggle, I always remind myself that nothing is lost in the kingdom of God. Nothing is unjust in the kingdom of God. All will be made right. God has the final say, and in the meantime, His desire is intimacy with us through all of the seasons. If we have intimacy with Him through all of the seasons, through all of its hardships, then in the end, we have won. And that’s where Jesus says, “In this world, you will have trouble.” It’s a promise because this world has fallen, but “I have overcome the world” is also a promise-

Jim: But be of good cheer.

Debra: … that He will redeem. Yes.

Jim: (Laughs) “For I have overcome the world.”

Debra: Yes.

Jim: I mean, don’t just, you know, gloat or, or be down about it.

Debra: Be encouraged.

Jim: Be encouraged. “I’ve overcome it.”

Debra: … that I have a solution.

Jim: Yeah.

Debra: And it is coming. And in the meantime, would you lean into intimacy with Him and see what He can do?

Jim: Debra, this is so good. Thank you for being with us again. Man, you just always bring such great insights. Thank you for being with us.

Debra: It’s a privilege to be with both of you.

Jim: Let me turn to the listeners. Uh, Debra’s newest book, Relationship Skills: The Four Seasons That Will Make or Break Your Love Life is super terrific. I can’t do it anymore. (Laughs) I mean, it’s been energetic, our discussions. I love the content. Um, Debra has spent much time to put this in writing. It’s a good tool. And w- it will help you recognize the season you’re in and the need to grow to a healthier place. That’s the point. If you can give a gift of any amount, we’ll help you and send you the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. If you can’t afford it, we wanna get it into your hands. We’re a Christian ministry. We want to provide that help. We’ll trust others will cover the cost of the resource.

Please know that Focus is here for you. There’s so many helps here at Focus. Hope Restored and the book and resources, Marriage Department, the assessment on your marriage. It’s free. You could take that. It’ll give you great insight on things you need to work on and those things that you’re doing pretty well. Let me give you a quick stat. 110,000 couples, uh, Focus was able to help in the last 12 months to help them work through crisis in their marriage. 110,000.

John: Mm.

Jim: Uh, that’s a privilege. And then we have Hope Restored. Let me read you a quick testimonial from one couple. They said, “We were at a very hard place.” I’d say winter, right, Debra?

Debra: Mm-hmm.

Jim: “Ready to separate. And I didn’t know how to move forward. The marriage intents have literally restored our hope and gave us tools to move forward.” That is great.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And Debra, let me just, again, say thank you for being with us. Thank you for the hard work that you do, counseling couples to save their marriages, to help them get to a better place. It’s an awesome vocation.

Debra: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It’s always a privilege.

John: Well get in touch today to learn about all the resources we have for you, including Debra’s book, Relationship Skills: The Four Seasons That Will Make or Break Your Love Life. Our phone number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

And plan now to join us next time as we take a look at K through 12 and secondary education to help your child thrive.

Preview:

Dr. Larry Taylor: Committed to prayer. I know my son and daughter, and I wanna place them in an environment that they’re gonna be mentored, discipled, uh, seek counsel, and ask a lot of questions.