Dr. John Townsend: If you get frustrated, go take a walk, go pray, go do something with your spouse. Don’t do that with the child. Emotional consequences are not helpful.
John Fuller: That’s Dr. John Townsend and he joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. He’s gonna help you set boundaries with your children. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: John, I’m looking forward to this. I mean, my boys are now in their 20s, but this is the kind of information I wish I would have understood and digested with Jean to be able to do this better. I mean, we understood the concepts, but we didn’t slow down to really apply them as best as we could. And for that reason, you know, we wanna make sure you’re equipped as a parent of younger children to be able to, uh, apply these boundaries because the outcomes are so good. And children feel more confident, more secure, even though it takes a little bit of, um, what’s the right word, discipline to be able to apply these as a parent, but it’s gonna be great content.
John: Yeah, and Dr. John Townsend is a speaker and bestselling author in recovering a book he co-wrote with Dr. Henry Cloud. It’s called Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children. And we’ll encourage you to get a copy of that.
Jim: Yeah, that’s so good. Welcome. Good to have you back, John.
Dr. Townsend: Great to be here.
Jim: What are some of those obstacles that parents run into when they’re setting boundaries?
Dr. Townsend: Well, there’s two ways to look at the obstacles. First is things that, um, kids do to oppose boundaries, that they don’t like them at first. They escalate sometimes and they blow up, they, or they melt down. Sometimes they withdraw and feel hurt and, you know, they don’t feel very loved, and sometimes they manipulate to get around it, but that’s not the biggest obstacle. The biggest obstacle is us, the parent.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Townsend: And some attitudes that we have and mindsets that we have that we’ve got to look at, that makes the biggest difference in the world. Let me give you a few examples. One is to need the child’s love. I need my child to think I’m good, and loving, and helpful, and think positive of me, I need my child. Well, if you need your child to think positive of you, you’ll never say no. You’ll be the circus parent.
Another one is, this is a technical term. It’s very important in parenting, fragilizing. To fragilize means to think that your child is a little broken egg. That you’ve got to walk on eggshells around so that when that child gets discomfortable, uncomfortable, because you’re frustrating them or saying no, are they gonna fall apart? Are they gonna have a nervous breakdown? And that’s making somebody who’s pretty resilient most of the time, fragile. That’s a problem in parenting.
Jim: Let me ask you in that regard because it, this is a really critical point. Um, the fact that culturally we’re avoiding allowing that resilience. ‘Cause we’re doing exactly what you’re saying, we’re overprotective, we’re-
Dr. Townsend: Yes.
Jim: … overly engaged. And, uh, I think again, this is one of those “aha” moments for a lot of parents who are watching or listening, who are the helicopter parent, the hovering parent. Because they feel that’s the responsibility of a parent of a three-year-old, five-year-old, nine-year-old.
Dr. Townsend: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Why do we need to back down a little bit because of the outcomes that will occur if we don’t?
Dr. Townsend: Yeah. The best way to look at that is, look at the sources for reality. One is the research. It just says if you are always keeping the child from any discomfort or unhappiness of any kind, you put out an anxious child. They feel insecure. Like, I don’t have the strength to handle, you know, hard things and I can’t, I don’t have frustration tolerance. And all of a sudden, they’re very scared about life because somebody took care of this for them.
The second is, um, project into the future. Now, if I don’t want him or her at nine to ever feel bad, what kind of a husband, or a wife, or a worker, or a minister, or a friend are they gonna be? They’re gonna be overwhelmed with life all the time. And the third source is, let’s read our Bible. What does it say in Ephesians? It says that we’re supposed to build each other up with grace and truth. Well, grace is the love and the support and the listening. And truth is, “Hey, there’s some house rules here.”
Jim: Mm.
Dr. Townsend: So it’s just not even a question anymore that the children need to know what no means and to have their own no ultimately.
Jim: Yeah, that’s so good. Um, we’re gonna do something a little different. We’ve got some callers, uh, who have sent their questions in knowing this program was gonna occur, which I think is great. So, you know, our goal here at Focus is to help you do this parenting job as best as you can. That’s always our goal. And hearing from you in this way, I think we’re gonna do a few, uh, is a great way to, uh, put real people in this spot and let them ask you a question.
Dr. Townsend: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So let’s take the first one.
Caller: I’m wondering at what age it’s appropriate to start disciplining your child. In general, you know, I was always taught that you just start as early as possible, but I’m wondering, like, what age they can start connecting the cause and effect of their actions. Like, I would assume it’s before they can have, you know, a full conversation, but I’m just not sure what that point is.
Dr. Townsend: It’s a great question. Um, I don’t believe in a lot of this during infancy. The first 12 months, that child is busy-
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: … Just trying to figure out what the world is-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: … and where love is and where safety is. And they don’t even have the neurological capacity yet to understand the meaning of the word no. It’s with a few exceptions. Maybe structure and feeding times and nap times later in the first year, but toddlerhood is where I believe it needs to begin, which is, you know, the onesie-twosie. And that’s when they can learn language. Cognitively they can go, “Oh, there’s this word called no, I need to understand this.” And if a parent will lovingly just set out house rules, you know, here’s how you treat your dog, or here’s how you obey mom and dad, or these sorts of things. And when they have, um, a bad attitude, help to correct that, that’s very important and very helpful. And it sets the stage. Don’t start that too late and, and toddlerhood is fine for that.
Jim: Yeah. Let me ask you, especially like with young children, kind of the phase we’re talking about right now. Uh, the mom who is just struggling with the, “Get your shoes on ’cause it’s time to go.” I mean, this sounds simple, but it’s so right. Yeah. Um, and she has to repeat that, or dad has to repeat that 20 times. I said, “Get your shoes on, we gotta go.” How do you create a boundary around that and enforcement of timeliness?
Dr. Townsend: Well, the first thing you have to do is to realize that if you say it several times, that’s the thing that we call nagging.
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: And nagging without consequences creates insanity.
Jim: (laughs). Right.
Dr. Townsend: Because the child learns, well, they always say it five times.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Townsend: I’m, I’m a number four right now, I’m fine. (laughs)
Jim: Yeah. I- isn’t it interesting they do learn how to-
Dr. Townsend: Absolutely.
Jim: … delay.
Dr. Townsend: So you tell them, I always say, give them the 30,000 picture. “You know, sweetheart, I used to say it seven times, and I think that I wanna change that. I’m gonna do it one time and then you’ll have the timeout, or I’ll take away the toy if it doesn’t happen.” Well, they don’t believe that because they have a thousand experiences of mom doing it or dad doing it that way.
But then when you follow that up and after the one time you take the toy away or whatever and the child is now in a new reality, I’m living in a new world because I lost something and they followed up. And so that’s gonna be a, you know, a conflict. There’s gonna be upsetness, but you have to tolerate that and be loving about it. And the more you do that and don’t, don’t nag, but say after the first time, I’ve got parents that were friends that said once we did that, all of a sudden we have all this lack of angst, and we had more fun time.
Jim: Yeah, interesting. You know, that’s the goal, right?
Dr. Townsend: That’s the goal.
Jim: That things happen when asked and consequences are few.
Dr. Townsend: And they put on their shoes.
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: Can you believe that Jim?
Jim: Which is the goal. (laughs). My goodness. No, you know, another concept in the same space is something you referred to as emotional consequences, to avoid emotional consequences. And this is another big one that we as parents tend to fail at because we get emotional. We’re angry and ’cause it, it’s now driven our temperature emotionally up. “I said to get those shoes on now.” And that’s not helpful because that kind of reaction or direction boundary, it starts to hurt the identity of the child. They think shame. It’s shame. “Okay, I’m not doing the right thing for whatever reason.” The child may not even understand it. “I just enjoy playing. I wanna color more. I don’t wanna put my shoes on.”
Dr. Townsend: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But the parent’s unhealthy emotional rise can lead to some issues later.
Dr. Townsend: Right. You know, it reminds me of Colossians 3 where the Bible says, “Don’t exasperate or embitter your child because they’ll get discouraged.”
Jim: That is a good scripture.
Dr. Townsend: It’s, it makes so much sense because when you look at it, there’s this little person called a child and there’s this big people out here, and you want the big people to be sane. They wanna be loving and rational and all those things. And if, if mom or dad blows their top with these emotional consequences, these shamey things, the kid thinks, “I live in a crazy world.” And it’s scary because they’re not safe anymore. But if the, the parent goes, “This is the rule.” Now here, I’m gonna be clear about it and stays warm about it. I’m firm, but warm, the child goes, “Oh, I live in sanity, and she’s safe, and he’s safe, and I can do this.” So you have, if you get frustrated, go take a walk, go pray, go do something with your spouse. Don’t do that with the child. Emotional consequences are not helpful.
Jim: And I, I mean, this is the thing that I’ve noticed even in raising my boys. You have to do everything within your power to always be the adult, to always be the calm one, the calm voice, never move into a place where you get angry and emotionally destructive, if I could say it that way. That’s a challenge ’cause they will, boy, the teen years, will they push your buttons or what?
Dr. Townsend: Right.
John: (laughs)
Jim: So, but you have to come back to this, “Okay, I’m the parent. I’m not the child.” But we can tend to, as parents, to get down in the mud with them.
Dr. Townsend: You know, what I think really helps there, Jim, is that, um, anytime you end that immediate crisis, a meltdown in the grocery store or somebody smoking dope at 14, you know, whatever the meltdown is-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: … is don’t get lost in the present crisis. Think future.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Townsend: What I’m getting ready to do with my child, I wanna play the long game. How am I gonna affect them as a parent, as a somebody, you know, who’s in their 30s, and what I next do will get me into my prefrontal cortex and I won’t be amygdala hijacked fighting and flight. Just think about the future when that happens-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: … and you’ll be the adult.
Jim: And it’s a good distraction too. (laughs) In the present, think about the future.
John: Yeah. Mm-hmm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and today we’re talking with Dr. John Townsend about, uh, really, it’s a classic book that, uh, he co-wrote with Dr. Henry Cloud, Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children. There’s so much here and, uh, we’ve got copies here at the ministry, uh, stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY.
Jim: Uh, John, we have another, uh, parent who wants to ask a question. Let’s hear what their question is.
Caller: So, uh, one of my twins in particular is just, has always just been a little more emotionally sensitive boy, um, and where it’s coming out now in these preteen years is just kind of like a o- overall moodiness or sullenness. Um, really it pushes my buttons, just the facial expressions and just the kind of like, woe is me-ism where I’m trying to, you know, we really want our kids to see all the good that God has for them. And so how do you handle that without heaping shame?
Dr. Townsend: You know, this is a really important question because especially in teen years, the hormones take over. Puberty takes over. The endocrine’s going and the moodiness happens, and a lot of parents are, “Goodness gracious, I want this child to see the good things that, that God’s brought around.” So this is sort of a semi boundaries and semi also attachment relationship question.
And in terms of the boundaries part, when there’s misbehavior with a sensitive teen, it doesn’t mean you drop the rule and say, “Well, if you’re upset, if it’s gonna make you discouraged,” if it’s a reasonable boundary about behavior or conduct, these sorts of things, you gotta hold the rule. But you do need to listen more. And what we find is instead of saying, “Stop feeling moody, get happy,” you know?
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: That never worked with me, is when you keep the structure, but you also say, “Tell me more about it.” When the child feels understood that my parent is with me, even though I’m down, I mean, think about David and the Psalms. He was always complaining to God and that’s why we know it’s okay and God was okay with it. The child begins to feel like, “You’re in the well with me. I do feel bad about my dating life or my, I’m not doing well in sports or whatever.” And the parent comes in and says, “I know that’s tough.” The child feels like I’m in this empty well of pain, but you’re not talking me out of it. You’re in the well with me, giving me grace and atonement, and the child begins to think this is okay, but don’t drop the structure and the responsibility at the same time. It’s a win-win, not a zero-sum game.
Jim: John, let me ask you this. How can parents teach their children to manage their own responsibilities? I mean, that, that’s kind of the golden question, actually, ’cause this is what every parent at every stage is gonna be troubled by. How do I do this? How do I teach my child life responsibilities and they then do them?
Dr. Townsend: I can give you the big picture in four words if it helps with this-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: … because this is the question, is how do you incentivize kids to make good choices with the boundary thing? The first thing is love, because no child can take a boundary, or a rule, or a job, or an obligation unless they know their loved because they’re gonna be disheartened. We, none of us can do things if we think somebody’s not on our side and on our team. So you gotta love them and let them know and be attached to them. But the second thing is you gotta give them the rules. Here’s the truth. The truth is this is how we conduct things in our house. So they know it. They gotta be informed. It’s not okay to say, I’m gonna give you a consequence and they never knew. Here’s the house rules. Can I tell a funny story about that?
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: There’s universal house rules like obey parents, and help out with chores, and do your homework. And then there’s those ones that are particular to your child, like your child’s personality. Like you, with an extrovert, then you take away their phone ’cause they love social stuff. With the introvert, then they can’t have a lot of alone time. I mean, you know the children. (laughs). And Barbi and I, when the kids were small, um, we had horrible bathroom things. They’d just go, I don’t know what is about the bathroom and brushing teeth. They would just do these things. And finally, we were writing things like, “Don’t put toothpaste on the dog.” (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: And it was like so particular. And so we finally go, “Wait a minute, this is leave the bathroom like you found it.” Okay.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Townsend: So you’ve got to go to the universal rules and the particular rules, but that’s the second thing is the truth, the rules. The third thing, and this is what’s so scary for parents, especially Christian parents, is freedom. You gotta be free to disobey. Because if you’re not free to disobey, you’ll never learn. And, and the parents that are uber, uber controlling and kind of rigid, the kid never has a chance to disobey and watch what happens later in life in college.
Jim: I, I wanna emphasize this because this is really good. It’s kind of another light bulb. Um, it feels like as we’re parenting in our limited ability, and that’s okay. I mean, we haven’t done this before, didn’t come with a manual, you’re learning as you go and how many parents want a do-over. You ever say that to Dena?
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I’ve said that to Jean, “I wish I could do, have a do-over.”
John: Yeah.
Jim: But in that regard, it’s okay for the child to fail.
Dr. Townsend: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You actually want them to and then be that net to help them learn from that-
Dr. Townsend: Right.
Jim: … and to do better next time. I think we, uh, this would be true for Jean and I. I think we had a goal of zero failure rate, and that’s so unhealthy-
Dr. Townsend: Right.
Jim: … for the child. And that would be a do-over for me to be more engaged with our boys to allow them to fail and allow them to be healthy in that.
Dr. Townsend: Right. Now, there’s certainly limit to that. You, you don’t tell a three-year-old they can run out in traffic.
Jim: Right.
Dr. Townsend: That’s awful. But yeah, they need to be able to fail because there’s no learning without it. You know, you take Joshua 24, it says, choose this day who you’re gonna serve. God even says, “I’m not gonna make you do this. There’s no have to here.” And the thing that, especially in those middle years, guys, you wanna be around when they fail. So I didn’t want, we didn’t want perfect children at those age because we had the suspicion that if they were perfect with us and we couldn’t be around to monitor things-
Jim: (laughs). Yes.
Dr. Townsend: … and guide things in college is gonna be a nightmare.
Jim: Correct.
Dr. Townsend: We, we always felt a little insecure around some parents that their kids are just kicking it and just, “How can I please my parents during the junior high years and the high school years?” And we were thinking, “Gosh, we’re not that.” And then we found out these nightmares happened in college ’cause now they learned how to choose. So, freedom is a good thing. So, the first step is the love. The second thing, here’s the rule, that’s the boundary. The third is the freedom to fail and to disobey, and the fourth is reality consequences.
Jim: Mm.
Dr. Townsend: Here’s what happens.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: And I’ve set up appropriate reality consequences, which is giving them something they don’t want, like chores, taking away something they do want, like a phone, and there’s the whole four words. And that’s kind of what the book is about.
John: Yeah. You know, in terms of responsibility, uh, Dr. Townsend, there is a moment most of us parents face where our child says, “I can’t do it.” And there’s something in what you just said that is making me wonder, how do we handle those moments? ‘Cause we aspire to actually, “You can do that because we think you can.” There’s some coaching involved in there, there’s some natural consequences, some failure. But how, how do we help our child understand the difference between, “I just don’t wanna do that” or “I don’t think I can,” and “my parents really want me to?”
Dr. Townsend: Yeah, John, that’s just a, a real normal problem. And in the book, we call it the law of responsibility. How do you bear your own load like, um, Galatians 6 says? And a lot of children will think, “I can’t do it because that’s uncomfortable.” Now, some things they can’t do, that’s why it’s important to have age appropriate, uh, responsibilities. In the book, we’ve got a table on that so you can know what’s different between a four-year-old and a 13-year-old, because there’s some things they cannot do.
John: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: But you start with what I call OJT, on the job training, walk them through it. Here’s how you feed the dog. Here’s how you do your homework and stay with it for 45 minutes without a break. Here’s how you learn how to cook. So you walk through them as you would with a job. So then they go, “I’m getting that capacity because mom and dad are, are training me.” And then there’s a learning curve, and they don’t walk the dog right or they only sit still for 10 minutes or whatever. And the learning curve makes mistakes and you’re just compassionate about that, but you stick with it.
Next, you empathize with the complaining. Let them complain about it as long as they’re doing it, don’t trigger. So many parents who don’t like the attitude and you either criticize them and shame them or you cave in and say, “Well, you’re upset,” but don’t do either one of those. Just empathize. “I know it’s tough. Get back to work.” And then you praise the success. That’s how kids learn competency in life for a skill, or a marriage, or faith.
Jim: Yeah. Let’s hear one more question before we end today and, uh, I want us to come back tomorrow, if you’re willing, and we’ll keep this rolling because it’s so good for parents to really understand boundaries. Let’s listen to this question.
Caller: My question relates to my 14-month-old. I’m a first-time mother to a beautiful little girl and I’m finding myself saying the word “no” to her a lot more than I ever thought I would. And, uh, she now says no back to me, and it feels like a little bit of a game. And I’m just wondering how can I implement boundaries, how can I deter her from doing things that are unsafe? How can I get her to, uh, stop doing things I don’t want her to do without the use of the word no, uh, especially during a season where communication is limited right now, um, with the skills that she has. So any feedback would be much appreciated. Thank you again. Bye.
Jim: This is the ultimate question for parents, how we get into this “no” debate. It’s like a tennis match where the ball is the word “no” and it’s going back and forth over the net.
Dr. Townsend: It really is. Well, let me pose another way to look at this. So, why toddlerhood to avoid no? Might as well stop it in early childhood, or late childhood, or early adolescents or late, maybe saying no is a bad thing all the way through life. Well, there’s gonna be a nightmare. And so let’s don’t just think about the toddlerhood. If you don’t like the word “no,” there’s a problem because it’s a great word. What does Matthew 5 say? “Let your yes be yes or your no be no.” It helps us. It gives us structure.
So, what we found out is the only group that shouldn’t really have a lot of no is like we talked about earlier, the infant. They really can’t metabolize or digest that. But a toddler on, they need it and they learn it. And I’m so happy with this caller because her child is responding with her own no, meaning I’m developing an identity. I’m gonna protect myself. I might have a good relationship and not let anybody, you know, gaslight me.
So, when the toddler says, does what you don’t like and you say no, and it’s a firm no and it’s a nice no, but it’s not a mean no, then they begin to protest. Set the consequence, make it a reasonable consequence. And after it’s become like normal, normalized that this is the way my family is, this is the way mom and dad are, they calm down. It’s like the rails of the crib for a baby. Structure brings security. A kid without a no in their lives is more insecure.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: And if you look at the long-term research on parenting, it’s really, really interesting. There are two factors of all these studies about what makes a nice person by age 21, from zero to 21, two factors. One is appropriate warmth, real warmth, listening, getting down to their level, you know, caring. And the second’s appropriate structure and strictness. That’s the two that matter.
Jim: Really interesting. And unfortunately as parents, we tend to see those as very different things and like most of life we lean into one and not the other. And when you do that in an imbalanced way, you end up with problems either way.
Dr. Townsend: And you end up with a split parent problem. The Disney parent and the uber strict parent and then the child learns, “Here’s where I have fun, I can do what I want, and here’s the one that I’m kind of afraid of and resentful.” Parents need to be integrated-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: … in what the Bible calls grace and truth.
Jim: That’s good. Uh, John, right at the end here, I wanna cover one thing that seems to be, uh, kind of a phenom amongst younger parents right now, this idea of avoiding the word no. That it’s not a healthy thing and I, think they refer to it as “gentle parenting.” Speak to that issue. It’s kind of touching on this idea of being out of balance in one direction. And I, you know, some of the best advice I ever got from a friend, uh, he said, “Try to say yes in your parenting more than no.”
But that came to activity, you know, when your son asks you or your daughter, “Do you wanna play catch?” Try to say yes. Don’t say, “No, I’m busy.” Um, and that’s how he was applying it. And I think that’s a distinction too. Say yes when it comes to things your child wants to do after work or whatever it might be rather than saying, “I’m really tired, I’m busy, whatever.” Then there’s this don’t say no in order to be gentle on the child. Speak to that.
Dr. Townsend: Well, I think that the gentle parenting thought pattern, there, there’s some strengths in it. One is they tend to be more emotionally attuned to how the, the child is feeling, and it’s very important. The attunement’s a big deal. Also, it’s, I think it’s good to sometimes explain the why instead of just, “I’m the mommy all the time, you know, because I’m the parent.” Well, sometimes you have to do that, but sometimes it’s helpful to say because, you know, um, it might hurt somebody’s feelings because we want you to be success. And the fact that it’s kind of anti-harshness, well, harshness can really damage a child. But here’s the weaknesses I think, no matter how warm we are and how attuned emotion we are, it can become permissiveness and then the child doesn’t learn structure and responsibility.
Also, there’s an over validating they call it sometimes of always over praising everything and that can dysregulate the neurology of a child’s brain because they know that they’re not that great, and they begin to feel like they’re a sham. “So, you’re telling me I’m gonna be the next president. Well, uh, maybe I am, but right now I can’t even make it through my classes.” So they feel this disconnect. The overpraising can be a problem. And also the collaborative conversation instead of no, like, “Well, let’s work this out together.” Well, what that does is the child begins to think, “I’m in charge here too, right? I’m just like these guys are.”
Jim: I got a vote.
Dr. Townsend: I got a big vote. And instead of, I’m gonna be in a world where there are authority figures, and there’s a God who owns everything, and there’s bosses and all this sort of thing, it becomes more confusing for them, and sometimes creates a sense of entitlement and the inability, this is the big one, the inability to tolerate life’s limits.
Jim: Yeah. That’s big, and it seems epidemic right now. So, uh, John, like I said, this is great. Let’s go another day and cover some more of the content in the book and what a great book it is. Uh, Dr. John Townsend with his co-author, Henry Cloud, Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children.
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Jim: And Dr. Townsend, you’re involved with raising up the next generation of strong Christian counselors through your efforts at Concordia. Tell us more about that.
Dr. Townsend: Well, it’s the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling at Concordia University in Irvine, California. It’s for people that want an opportunity to enhance their career, get a new career, move up the ladder, we’re a fully accredited remote graduate degree school. We got three programs. You can get a master’s or a certificate in counseling, or an organizational leadership, or an executive coaching and consulting. And we have now a, a PhD in counseling and actually Forbes Magazine made us the, uh, number one remote PhD in counseling.
Jim: Wow.
Dr. Townsend: So we’re all happy about that.
Jim: Yeah, that’s great.
Dr. Townsend: We have hundreds of students. They’re getting great jobs. We’re at the bottom third of expensive schools like ours, and we have these great guest experts, people like Henry Cloud, Patrick Lencioni. There’s a person named Jim Daly who speaks with our students who’s very well-
Jim: (Laughs). It’s always fun to talk to the students.
Dr. Townsend: So yeah, we’re at uh, townsendinstitute.com.
John: And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Dr. Townsend and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two:
Dr. John Townsend: Help the child learn that life is not about avoiding pain, because sometimes our culture teaches them it’s about being happy and avoiding all kinds of pain and they stay immature. That actually embrace it, make it your ally.
John Fuller: That’s Dr. John Townsend and he’s back with us again today on Focus on the Family talking about how you can implement healthy boundaries with your children. Thanks for joining us. I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: You know, yesterday we talked about teaching kids to accept the consequences of their actions. I think most parents struggle with that. Um, then we covered the strengths and weaknesses of gentle parenting and really defining boundaries and how we get onto a healthy, regular, reinforced boundary approach to really help your child to mature and grow in the healthiest way possible.
Today we’re gonna talk about some key concepts. Including the steps to helping kids develop their own sense of right and wrong, which as we talked about yesterday with Dr. Townsend, “no” is actually a good thing for a child to learn. It starts to develop their identity and you want that child in later teen years to be able to say no. And so that’s a good thing and it’s not an error if they’re pushing back a little. But how do we do this constructively? Uh, it’s gonna be a great conversation and I hope, if you missed last time, get the Focus on the Family app so you can hear it and hear all the inventory here at Focus on the Family.
John: Yeah, that app is available and free to you, and we hope you’ll get that. Uh, Dr. Townsend has co-written a book with Dr. Henry Cloud. Uh, it really is a classic. It’s called Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children, and we’ll encourage you to get a copy when you contact us.
Jim: John, welcome back to the program.
Dr. Townsend: Thanks, guys. You know, I was thinking when you read that part about, um, Henry and I writing this, John. Um, it came about because all the boundaries work was working and then people came along and parents said, “We’d like to help our kids with this boundary thing before they have the train wrecks and the pain that we had in our adult lives. So can you write in a more preventive level?” But thank you to the parents-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: … who were asking for that.
Jim: Yeah, that’s so, so good. Let me start here. What does it look like for kids to learn to respect the boundaries of others?
Dr. Townsend: Well, they don’t start off that way because their life is, you know-
Jim: (laughs). It’s all about me.
Dr. Townsend: It’s about me and mom and dad exists to serve me, and that’s okay for a while. But sooner or later you’re gonna be in a world of relationships and they have to learn this. And there is some relational “no’s” they have to learn was, as young children, don’t hurt someone. I mean, it’s fundamental. Um, don’t trespass on someone’s things, and especially don’t punish another kid’s “no.” If the kids disagrees, don’t make them bad because they gotta have a choice. How do you do that? Well, you have empathy for it because it’s hard for them, but you correct them and you give them consequences where there’s disrespect. Even if they don’t like it, they have to learn that mom and dad don’t like disrespect of themselves and other people.
But here’s another really important part. They’ll learn to respect other people’s boundaries when you establish your own separateness as a parent. For example, the child wants to do something, and you’ve already played with them for a long time and now you wanna, I don’t know, do a crossword puzzle. And the child comes up again and says, “Play with me.” And sometimes the parents tempted to say, “Well, I gotta be a good parent even though I spent two hours here, I’ll put my puzzle aside.” The best thing to say is, “No, I’m gonna do a puzzle right now. That’s what I need to do, but you can play.” And all of a sudden the child’s in a world where, “Oh, you’re not always available when I always need you. I’ve got to respect that.”
Jim: Mm.
Dr. Townsend: So insist on your own separateness as well as the child’s.
John: Yeah.
Jim: You know, we’ve, uh, had Dr. Ken Wilgus here. You might know Dr. Ken Wilgus, great guy. He wrote the funniest book title, which was Feeding the Mouth that Bites You: How To Emancipate Your Teenagers Into Adulthood. And it really is in this area, uh, that I’m about to ask you and that’s giving kids some age-appropriate freedom to help them separate themselves in a healthy way from the parent. Uh, for example, he would say, “At some point, you let your 13, 14-year-old own their room.”
Dr. Townsend: Yep.
Jim: And his rules were, “You just don’t have, nothing can be stinky or rotting. Hopefully, we’ve taught you how to keep your room nicely,” but that’s it. And you hand it over and you don’t take it back. Is that a good thing?
Dr. Townsend: That is so wise. It comes down to what, um, in the book we call it the law of sowing and reaping.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: You know, the, you know, think about how we all learn as humans, not just kids, we learn when we reap what we sow. Look at freedom. How can they sow when they don’t have a choice? You’ve got to have freedom to make a bad choice to sow so you can reap. They have to be free to sow positive things or negative things, otherwise there’s no reaping and no learning and no growing.
Jim: That’s so amazing. Let’s talk about unconditional love. Um, you know, this one, I have this banter in my own head when you’re saying, “I love you. I love you so much. You’re never gonna know how much I love you…put that down.”
Dr. Townsend: (laughs)
Jim: If you don’t respond, and it, like, totally communicates my love is conditional. And I think parents, we have this inner struggle going, (laughs) “Am I loving this child unconditionally or am I putting all the conditions on it ’cause they’re not performing or behaving the way that I want them to?” Speak to that dilemma and then what is healthy, real, unconditional love look like?
Dr. Townsend: Yeah, let’s start with what that really is. Think about God. He doesn’t, I don’t know about you guys, but He hasn’t answered all my prayers this year. (laughs)
Jim: (laughs). Right.
Dr. Townsend: But I know He loves me all the time.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: And so it doesn’t … Some people think that unconditional love is always feeling good feelings toward and always gratifying the child.
Jim: Ah.
Dr. Townsend: “I feel good towards you. I’m always-” that’s love. Well, that can be hate.
Jim: Wow.
Dr. Townsend: You can make, you can make a drug addict out of that. So love is really, uh, a stance of, “I’m for you and I want your best.” And if we can change it from the feeling and gratification to, “It’s a mental state that makes me want to do the very best for you, even if it’s uncomfortable,” that’s unconditional love. I don’t have to feel good feelings when my kid’s screaming, and yelling, and causing a mess. But I shouldn’t be harsh, but I should be direct, but I know I’m doing the surgery that’s needed right now.
Jim: So unconditional love is, “Hey, I didn’t kick you out of the house.” (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: And hate might be, “I did kick you out of the house too early-”
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: … “Instead of when I should’ve.”
Jim: Yeah. I mean, it’s, that’s the whole balancing feature of parenting. Let’s hear a clip like we did, uh, yesterday. Let’s hear a clip from a dad on setting boundaries.
Caller: My two sons are 24 and 26 years old and they don’t really help out with the bills or rent, and what little money they make is spent on drugs. My younger son is trying, but he sees his older brother getting away with stuff and he just follows in his footsteps. I don’t believe it.
Dr. Townsend: My heart just sank to hear this man. Whoever you are, man, I’m so sorry. I’ll say a prayer. Um, let me provide a sort of a path here for this gentleman, uh, who’s kind of living a nightmare. Um, you’re gonna need support. Whatever’s going on in the house with two grown young men who are doing drugs and not spending it on the right things and that sort of thing. Um, you’re gonna need to get external support. So don’t do this on your own. Get a good church, a good Christian therapist, get people around you who have the same values because for you to change this is going to take some time.
Now, um, number one, I think you’re going to have to get, once you’ve got the support systems in, you’re going to have to insist on a drug-free home. I mean, that’s just, you can’t compromise on that. And there are going to have to be some rules that you’ll probably need help with in, in constructing such as, here’s what will keep you in the house for as long as until you’re ready to launch. Because they do need to launch sooner or later, and here’s what I want. There are good counselors and therapists that can help you make a plan. You’re going to need to chart a path for autonomy that your sons are not ready for.
So, I want you to start as Steven Covey says, with the end in mind. The end in mind is that they’re out of your house. There, they can’t be happy with that or fulfill with that. Out of the house, autonomous, free, working somewhere, drug free. And so what does it take to create that, get the long-run in mind? That means some of them may need a coach or a counselor. They also may need to know some house rules that you’re going to enforce and they may need to have the consequences of, “You can stay here if you don’t do drugs. If you can’t, I’m sorry, you’re going to be out of the house.”
And I’ve had to do that with many parents who said, “Well, what will they do?” Well, they’ll probably sleep on a friend’s couch for a while and eat pizza and then find out, “Gosh, it’s better be in a home like the prodigal son,” but you’re going to have to have the rules and enforce those. And all the same time, letting these young men know that you love them even though they will say that you hate them, you’re providing, you’re providing experts, you’re providing structure, you’re providing a way and, and a path for autonomy, and leaving, and cleaving that they don’t possess.
Jim: John, you encourage, uh, parents in the book, uh, to consider paying a good experience. It can be a good experience for them to know the bottom. And, you know, we all say this in the Christian community, you know, it’s important for your children to go to a valley if that’s where God needs to meet them. And, you know, one of the most, I think, challenging questions I ever received is, would you be willing to let God take your kids through that valley?
Dr. Townsend: I think that’s the hardest prayer-
Jim: Wow.
Dr. Townsend: … any of us can pray, but it’s a good one.
Jim: Yeah. And tell us why. Why is pain helpful?
Dr. Townsend: Well, let’s start with Hebrews 12, where it says all discipline seems painful, but it brings the peaceable fruit of righteousness. God’s very clear and He’s the being that created neuroscience and parenting in the first place and we want our kids to live a life of being right. Living the right life. And so, pain teaches us things. Now, we’re not talking about the wrong kind of pain. We don’t want to damage the child.
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: We don’t mind them being uncomfortable. Discomfort is very different than damage. So evaluate if it’s the right kind of pain that will help them mature and thrive. But yes, help the child learn that life is not about avoiding pain because sometimes our culture teaches them. It’s about being happy and avoiding all kinds of pain and they stay immature. Actually, embrace it. Make it your ally. Learn to deal with a difficult teacher. Learn to deal with that bully. Learn to deal with a sport you haven’t done or a course you haven’t taken and look what happens on the other end when you succeeded.
Jim: Hmm.
Dr. Townsend: And so, all of a sudden, they realize pain is my friend. It’s my ally.
Jim: Yeah. But it’s, again, hard to stand there as a parent and allow that to happen, but you gotta do your best-
Dr. Townsend: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … to let God do his best.
Dr. Townsend: Yeah.
Jim: Right?
Dr. Townsend: And that’s when we need community. Those parents who are like-minded and you can call them and say, “I’m so sad that they’re, my child’s crying and they’re discouraged, but it was a legitimate boundary and a consequence.” And the parent goes, “Stick with it, stick with it.” And if you tell your child, “Stick with it,” that child takes that in. And when they’re 30, they’ll go, “I’ve got a hard job, I’ve got a hard marriage. I can stick with it because I’ve done it before.”
Jim: Yeah. It’s good.
Dr. Townsend: It’s the internalization.
John: Yeah. And if you’re that parent and you’re thinking, “This is just too difficult. I don’t have the community. I don’t know where to turn.” Uh, Dr. Townsend mentioned the importance of a Christian, uh, counselor. We have caring Christian counselors here at Focus on the Family. So if this is touching a nerve for you, please call us, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.
Uh, this is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and, uh, Dr. John Townsend has co-written a book called Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children. Uh, there’s so much in here. It covers pretty much every age and stage and, uh, we’ll encourage you to get a copy of the book from us. Uh, you can call that number 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY or stop by our website and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: John, let’s play another question, uh, about boundaries.
Caller: Hi, I have a question. Um, my son is very energetic, um, likes to be active. Like play sports and all those things, but I find it hard to get him to actually sit and listen. Um, he’s six years old and I was wondering, oh, what would be a good way to teach him the importance of listening and having good listening skills?
Dr. Townsend: Yeah. And you’re, you’re addressing this at the right time too, six is a great age to learn that. And at six, especially boys, a lot of times girls too, you’re interested more in your activities, and you’re interested more in what you have to say-
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: … and not what anybody else has to say. So, um, I would address this very directly with your son, just like any parent does, “Here’s how you clean your room, here’s how you, uh, set up for the table.” And I would say, “I wanna help you learn to listen because this is something that, um, I think you’re kind of challenged in and it’s gonna be very important to you.” And so you just tell them, “This is how you have great relationships, this is how people like you better, this is where you learn things.” Now, sometimes a six-year-old who’s really into activities will just blow that off, but it’s in there somewhere because you have to give them the framework first of why this is important.
And the second thing is you give them examples and say, “You know, when I was trying to tell you something about X, a movie we saw or something we did at church and you kept changing the subject and talking about yourself, um, it didn’t work between you and me and you didn’t, you and I weren’t that close,” and all of a sudden they realize, “Oh, this affects my relationships.” And then sometimes a child will say, “Well, what do I do?” Well, teach them the basics of asking questions, stop talking and then say, “How are you doing? What did you think? How was your day?” And teach them those basic questions that everybody’s got to learn. Three or four of them that can get somebody to open up. And then have them practice that with their friends and all of a sudden, now they’re the captain of the team.
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: Now, if none of that is working, that’s when you have to say, “In our home, we’re going to need to have you talk and then listen, and talk and then listen. And if you can’t stop talking, sweetheart, we don’t want to do it, but there might be a consequence for that because you talking all the time and not listening is kind of hard on the whole family. It’s not good for you.”
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: But hopefully it’ll be done before you have to go to the consequences. But I’ve had parents have to do that, say, “It’s your turn to stop talking and start listening,” and make that a norm so they do it in the real life.
Jim: It’s so funny. I’m laughing because when I was a child, my mom’s best friend, and we considered her family, part of our family, the, my mom’s best friend. Penny and (laughs) I, I think I was just talking way too much, (laughs) heaven knew that I would be sitting behind a microphone someday. But she said to me, she just turned to me and she said, “Jimmy, you’ve got diarrhea of the mouth.” (laughs).
Dr. Townsend: (laughs)
Jim: Talk about making an impact on a child. I still remember that. I know where I was standing.
Dr. Townsend: Word pictures were helpful. (laughs)
Jim: When she said it, I was… and you know, my immediate response, I just went quiet.
Dr. Townsend: Yeah.
Jim: ‘Cause I thought, oh, I didn’t know. (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: Yeah.
Jim: But I, I mean, to this day, I think it centered me on being able to be quieter so I can actually hear the person across the table from me.
Dr. Townsend: Isn’t that something?
Jim: But it, you know, somebody might look at that and say that was harsh, but it did have a positive impact in my life.
Dr. Townsend: Let’s change that word from harsh to direct.
Jim: Yeah, okay. Yeah.
John: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Townsend: Because every time, sometimes in our culture, it’s sort of like if someone’s direct, they’re mean and harsh. Well, it feels harsh because you’ve never heard that before, but it’s just direct by a caring, warm person. Let’s just baptize the word direct.
Jim: That’s a great point, because our culture’s all about tolerance of everything, even parenting.
Dr. Townsend: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Like you gotta tolerate your child’s behavior. No, you-
Dr. Townsend: No, not really.
Jim: … don’t. So I, I don’t know, I think back on it now I laugh because, you know, who would’ve known I would end up in communication as a profession. (laughs)
John: It’s richly ironic, isn’t it? Yeah.
Jim: But, uh, anyway, so let me ask you this, you, in the book you described three realities. Let’s spend a little time here and speak to the three realities of setting boundaries.
Dr. Townsend: Yeah, it’s very simple and sometimes since parenting is so complicated we get into details that we don’t need to get to. But if you can remember these three things that’ll really help. First, there’s a problem and your child’s not perfect.
Jim: (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: Your child’s not perfect and it’s just the way it is. And if you can say that and realize, you know, that we’re born into the world and an imperfect world and my child needs training and my child needs growth, you’re okay. That, that makes us all relaxed to know, “My child’s not perfect. They’re just a work in progress.” But next it’s plug in. You need relationships. It takes a church, it takes families, it takes neighbors. Don’t do this alone. Not even with a great spouse. We need other people’s perspective and strength.
And then the big one, I think, besides that is grow in your own character and your own boundaries. When you have your own boundaries, your child’s living around a grownup who can make hard decisions, do the right thing, and succeed, and they see that and they want that.
Jim: Connecting that one to the first one, I think one of the things I think I did well was to show my boys that I’m not perfect. You know, we know the child isn’t perfect and sometimes in parenting, we can reinforce that all day long.
Dr. Townsend: Mm-hmm.
Jim: You know? (laughs). But what helps, I think what really helped for my sons was when I could confess that I’m not perfect.
Dr. Townsend: Yeah.
Jim: I made that, I blew that. I remember one time saying to Trent after, you know, I think I disciplined him for something and it was probably too much energy. Um, and I said to him, “I’m sorry, I really reacted to that in a way that I shouldn’t have reacted.” And he had the biggest smile on his face. He was probably eight and I said, “Why are you smiling like that?” He goes, “I didn’t know parents had to apologize.”
Dr. Townsend: Wow.
Jim: Wasn’t that-
Dr. Townsend: What a light bulb moment.
Jim: What a light bulb.
Dr. Townsend: Yeah.
Jim: And it was a good thing. And I think maybe, you know, you see these lessons that you lay down for your kids, that was probably one of the brighter lessons that I was able to get to.
Dr. Townsend: Well, the funny thing about that, Jim, is, you know, we think it’s a big deal that we let them know we’re not perfect. They know.
Jim: (laughs). It’s true.
Dr. Townsend: They’ve been watching.
Jim: Thank you for joining my therapy today with Dr. John Townsend.
Dr. Townsend: (laughs). They’re just waiting to see, “Are they going to ever admit what I already know?” (laughs)
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: And that, and, and what you did, I love that rupture and repair dynamic of once you know you’ve screwed up, how fast can you repair it?
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: And kids do get that eight-year-old smile like, “Okay, things are okay.”
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: Don’t wait, do it quickly.
Jim: Yeah, that’s so, so good. In that context of the third of the realities, uh, there’s a concept in there you said, “Time does not heal all.” We tend to use that so freely in our culture. Time will take care of it. We lose a loved one. Time will heal that. It’s partially true, isn’t it?
Dr. Townsend: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It may not be all the way true, but-
Dr. Townsend: Well, look at it like this. When you go to your doctor with a bacterial infection, does she say, “Well, time’s going to heal this.”
Jim: No. (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: She says, “It’s going to take time. Time is a necessary but insufficient condition. You must have it. It’s not enough because of two other elements. It’s time plus grace plus truth will do anything. Grace is the love of God, the love of other people, the support and information, truth, principles, uh, structures, these sorts of things. Time will do it as long as there’s grace and truth involved.
Jim: Yeah. You know, for our parents that are in the middle of work, and life, and orchestrating all of that, and let’s not talk about the in-laws, and Christmas, and Thanksgiving, and all this stuff that happens throughout the year. You want me to do what, Dr. Townsend? Teach boundaries to our kids? Make the pitch for why doing this actually saves you so much work later.
Dr. Townsend: There’s a “why” here, and the “why” is because it’s not now, it’s about the future. The family, and you guys know this better than anybody, the family is an oven. Where you take this little bitty being and then you take it through all these experiences and these growth things and then they come out hopefully a functional, loving adult. They can love. They can work. Their life is in place, and that’s what our job is about. And so, if you can tolerate the tough thing about the attitude problem now, or the disrespect, or the chaos and think, “I’m making something later that’ll be good for her and good for me.” The parent’s job is to bring the future into the present and say, “We’re doing these things because we want you to be a strong person, a happy person, and in control person.”
Jim: You know, one of the things, and we’ve talked with Dr. Kevin Leman and you know him well as a friend, you know, the birth order, personality, temperament must play into this a bit. And we saw that in our own children. You know, you think you’re the same family, but each child is unique. And so, we had the strong-willed child, and we had the more passive child. And you do have to, I would think, um, and maybe you disagree with this. I would think you have to, uh, kind of adjust these approaches of boundaries to the temperament of your child a bit. Not in the concreteness of them, but maybe in the way they’re delivered or how would you answer that question about how I deal with the type of child I have, the strong-willed child and the passive child, just as an example.
Dr. Townsend: Absolutely. I totally agree with that. The basics are the basics. There are house rules that we will always keep and we will stick to. But you have to customize it according to the temperament of the child, which was just built in and baked in-
Jim: Yeah.
Dr. Townsend: … from the DNA. And when you do that, everybody wins. So it’s the communication style, it’s how direct you are, it’s how much you listen. As long as the basics are working and you’re doing it their way, everything works.
Jim: And I think it’s so good because, uh, again, with my oldest son, it’s very linear for him, very logic driven. He just wants to know. I remember saying to him, once he had his license, we had a midnight curfew and I said to him, you know, “Be home by midnight.” And he said, “Why?” And I said, “One, it’s the time limit, and two, nothing good happens with teenagers after midnight.” And he said to me, “Do you have empirical data to support that?”
Dr. Townsend: (laughs)
Jim: That was exactly what he said. (laughs)
Dr. Townsend: (laughs)
Jim: And my other son, who’s much more “feeler,” um, I had the same chat with him two years later and he said, “Okay, dad, I think you’re right.” Very different responses, right? But that’s the point that you have to know your child, which takes a bit of work-
Dr. Townsend: Yep.
Jim: … and then apply those principles accordingly.
Dr. Townsend: Just like you’d like to be treated.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, there you go. (laughs). I think that’s in scripture, isn’t it?
Dr. Townsend: (laughs)
Jim: Um, treat others, yeah, we get it. Um, John, this has been great. Thank you so much for, man, a lifetime of learning when it comes to neuroscience, and therapy, and psychology. But mostly the biblical application of this and you’ve said it a couple of times here that the Lord is the creator of neuro pathways and we’re finding that more and more. And I just love the way you blend that first as a Christian, but secondly, as a professional who works on the mind. I mean, these are important things to know and that’s the goal of us as parents is to, I hope, to create the healthiest adult children that we can. Because in that we’re honoring the Lord with our responsibility as the parent, right?
Dr. Townsend: Yes, that’s true, Jim. And I’ve just got to thank you for all the years of keeping the mission and vision straight. I can’t tell you how many parents I have referred to you whose lives and parenting were saved over the years because there was a message, there were skills, there was help that nobody else was putting out. So thank you.
Jim: Wow. Thank you so much, Dr. Townsend. It really helps when people like you sit at the microphone here and we can talk about it together, and that’s the invitation. If this has sparked awareness for you or, you know, somebody that needs this book, get ahold of us. When you make a monthly pledge of any amount, we’ll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for joining the ministry and together we’re helping more people.
Your donations allow us to serve parents who are struggling. Uh, one listener said this. “I have learned so much from you and love the biblical parenting truths you encourage us with. Thank you for your time and energy. Your ministry has been a source of hope and comfort as we tackle parenting.” We need year-round donations to keep creating resources and offering support. So be that partner with us, uh, make an impact for Christ for generations.
John: Yeah, donate today and by the way, if a monthly gift isn’t possible right now, we’ll certainly, uh, appreciate your one-time gift of any amount. Donate today, get a copy of Dr. Townsend’s book, Boundaries with Kids, when you call 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
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Jim: And Dr. Townsend, you’re involved with raising up the next generation of strong Christian counselors through your efforts at Concordia. Tell us more about that.
Dr. Townsend: Well, it’s the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling at Concordia University in Irvine, California. It’s for people that want an opportunity to enhance their career, get a new career, move up the ladder. We’re a fully accredited remote graduate degree school. We got three programs. You can get a master’s or a certificate in counseling, or in organizational leadership, or in executive coaching and consulting. And we have now a PhD in counseling. And actually, Forbes Magazine made us the, uh, number one remote PhD in counseling.
Jim: Wow.
Dr. Townsend: So we’re all happy about that.
Jim: Yeah, it’s great.
Dr. Townsend: We have hundreds of students. They’re getting great jobs. We’re at the bottom third of expense of schools like ours and we have these great guest experts, people like Henry Cloud, Patrick Lencioni. There’s a person named Jim Daly who speaks to other students who’s very well known.
Jim: (laughs). It’s always fun to talk to the students.
Dr. Townsend: So yeah, we’re at, uh, townsendinstitute.com.
John: Well, it’s so fun to hear what God’s doing, John. And, uh, plan to join us next time as we hear from Dr. Erwin Lutzer. He’ll be sharing how we can trust God even when he doesn’t seem to be answering our prayers.
Erwin Lutzer: It’s because the father said no to the son, you have to drink the cup. That is the basis of our salvation. And I, if I could shout this to everyone who’s listening, I would say this, that God may be doing greater things through unanswered prayer than He is through answered prayer.
John: On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.
