Mrs. Chrys Howard: Grandparents can be that extra level, that extra layer that our children need, especially in today’s world. They need all the reinforcement they can get. A lot like – can look like when you’re doing it the right way, when you’re living it God’s way, and laying those examples out for them of being hospitable and having good manners and being kind and considerate and speaking life into people.
End of Excerpt
John Fuller: That’s Chrys Howard, and she’s our guest today on Focus on the Family. Your host is Focus president and author Jim Daly. And I’m John Fuller.
Jim Daly: Hey, John. Grandparents are special people, aren’t they? We’re not there yet (laughter).
John: I’m not there yet, but I do have great memories of my grandparents.
Jim: But we’re looking forward to that day…
Jim: …All in the right order. But seriously, grandparents have a unique voice and influence in families. And I’m excited to honor them today. Many of you write in or email us or somehow get a hold of us – probably because John, you give them the details – but…
John: Perhaps that could be it.
Jim: …And you say, “Can you have more on grandparenting?” So here it is. This is one of the hopefully many times we’ll be addressing grandparenting and the things that you can do to have, in this case today, rock star grandparenting, which is Chrys Howard’s great book. And Chrys is with us today.
John: She’s the mother of three adult children – Korie Robertson, one of the stars of the A&E hit TV show Duck Dynasty, Ryan Howard and Ashley Nelson. And Chrys has 14 grandchildren. And I’m sure a year from now it’ll be 15 or more. She directs…
Jim: That’s how that works.
John: …It is, yes. Open up the floodgates. Chrys directs a Christian youth camp in the summer and spends time serving in the mission field. She hosts a radio show called It’s A Mom Thing, and has written a number of books, including, as you mentioned, Jim, Rockstar Grandparent: How You Can Lead The Way, Light The Road, And Launch A Legacy. And of course, we have copies of that book and this conversation as well at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: Chrys, welcome to the program.
Chrys: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited.
Jim: It’s so fun. We’ve had so many of the Robertson clan here. You quickly, as we met each other a few moments ago, you said, “OK, I’m not the hunter in the family.”
Jim: Is that a little pressure to go out with the clan?
Chrys: Well, no, no. Actually, no because they don’t want to take anybody else. Like, they have their – their hunting crew that they go with. And so…
John: It’s kind of a sacred thing.
Chrys: Yeah, like, you have to be really included in that. But we’ve…
Jim: You’ve never been invited?
Chrys: I’ve never – never been invited.
Jim: Oh, come on, Willie.
Chrys: I really should tell Willie. You’re right.
Jim: Now, you’re – you’re Korie’s mom.
Chrys: I’m Korie’s mom.
Jim: Yeah, so…
Chrys: And Korie does hunt with Willie.
Jim: And you’re Sadie’s grandmother then. And we’ve had Sadie on the broadcast. Man, she is a delightful young lady.
Chrys: She is a little firecracker.
Jim: Are you taking credit for that?
Chrys: I’m taking every bit of the credit for that.
Jim: That is awesome that you do. That’s what a grandparent needs to do, right?
Chrys: We should, absolutely. That’s right.
Jim: Hey, let’s – let’s, start there. Why is it such an awesome thing to be a grandparent?
Chrys: OK, well, there’s so many reasons why it’s an awesome thing. But I think one of the biggest reasons is you have acquired some knowledge and some life skills and some wisdom. And you are just ready to pour that into somebody. And your kids are done with that. They’ve…
John: Yeah, they don’t want to hear anymore.
Chrys: They’ve heard everything that you had to say. So, then you get this new crop of precious little babies who love and adore you because you’re not in the house with them all the time. You’re the guest and you’re the – you’re the special house they get to go to. And you get to have all this time with them that you can share all those things that you’ve learned. And guess what? They really, like, listen.
Chrys: It’s so fun. It’s like – and just even with Sadie, you mentioned Sadie, and I love to take some of the credit, but she does have awesome parents. But she lived next door to me. And so, what an honor that was that she just would run back and forth. And, you know, I tell people when she was little she would say – because we owned a publishing company, we traveled a lot – and she said, “2-mama, why do you have to go out of town again?” And I said, “Well, sweetie, it’s part of my job.” And now I’m saying that to her. “Why are you leaving? Stay here for a little bit.”
Jim: You said something that some listeners may – what’d she just say? You called yourself the 2-mama.
Jim: Give us that explanation.
Chrys: They call me 2-mama. That was John Luke. John Luke was my oldest, firstborn grandchild. We have Rebecca now that Korie and Willie adopted into the family when she was 16, so she’s older. But John Luke was the oldest born grandchild. And he was calling Korie mama and me mama, both of us, which is confusing for all involved.
Chrys: However, inside I loved it, of course, you know. Grandparents love that. So anyway, um, we just kept trying every name, even names I said I would never say – mamaw. I was like, “Call me grandma, anything.”
Chrys: So anyway, we had tried all kinds of grandma names, and nothing would stick. It was just mama and mama for both of us. And, uh, one day after Sadie was born, he looked at me, he was wanting to go with me, and he was crying. And I was saying, “No, I want you to go with Mama, you’re gonna go home.” And he’s saying, “Mama,” like, to me. And I said, “No, to this mama.” And he looked up at me and said, “2-mama.” And literally from that day, never varied. It’s been 2-mama since that day. Um, I think it’s because he was so smart, and he’s my firstborn.
Jim: (Laughter) Of course.
Chrys: When it comes to your grandchildren, you honor that firstborn.
Jim: You hear that, John? John’s a firstborn. He appreciates that.
John: Thank you. I get a lot of grief from Jim off air about being a firstborn.
Chrys: Well, you know, just own it, I guess.
Jim: I’m not gonna hear the end of this.
Chrys: Anyway, he, um – I just thought because we brought Sadie home and we had said so many times – we’re like, “Oh, we have two babies now” – because he was only 21 months old – “We have two babies now,” so he could add. And he’s got one mama and then 2-mama.
Jim: Let’s us…again, mentioning Sadie, one of the things with grandparenting – and of course you had wonderful proximity, being the neighbor – right?
Jim: … to your grandchild and to your adult children. But I think one of the things that’s so obvious is grandparents seem to have time. You mention that.
Jim: I want to make sure we put an exclamation point around that. And it’s a bit of disadvantage for the parents because they’re busy, you know, providing for the home and doing all the things that they need to do in their 30s, 40s and 50s. And the grandparents have time. And there seems to be that special bond that a grandchild feels that. Like, grandma and grandpa, they always recognize me. They always see me. They always hear me. And they make time for me. How do you balance that, especially if the parent, the adult child, is a little jealous of that fact? What do you do?
Chrys: Well, I – hopefully that is not the case and hopefully you have a relationship with your children that you don’t have to deal with there being some jealousy there. But it did – I did worry about that when John Luke was born because he loved being with me so much. But Korie was so great about that and accepted that role that I had as a grandparent.
And so, I think there’s always – in whatever relationship you’re dealing with, there’s boundaries. And you – you have to figure that out of what the parent – you have to be respectful of the parents of the child because they are the ones in control. You have to be respectful of what their goals and desires for that child is, and then you work within that. You have to be smart and think.
John: Even if you don’t agree with all of that.
Chrys: Yes, even if you don’t always agree. And I tell a story about when we were at the movie with Sadie, and the movie Spirit had come out with a spirited horse. And as you can tell by working with Sadie, she’s got a little spirit about her.
Jim: (Laughter) I haven’t seen anybody in the family that doesn’t have a spirit, but maybe someday.
Chrys: She was little, like, 4 or 5. And she left her stuffed animal in the car, and she wanted it. And Korie was wrangling the kids and different things and she told Sadie, “No, we’re not gonna get it. You’re fine. You can sit through the movie fine.” And as the grandparent, I could have easily said, “I’ll go get it, honey.” But I could tell that was a teaching moment for Korie. Korie was teaching Sadie that she could sit here, and she would be perfectly fine, and I’ve already said no and we’re not changing that; that was the lesson she was teaching. So, I had to bite my tongue, swallow, sit there and reinforce what Korie was saying, “You’re fine, Sadie. You’ll be fine.” And that’s what a grandparent needs to do.
Jim: Well, that – and again, we need to punch that point because maybe an unspoken guideline is you got to reinforce the parents’ desires and wishes and how you go about doing that. That can cause a lot of conflict or…
Chrys: It can.
Jim: The two can allow it to cause conflict. How do you deflate that? Did you have a negotiation day where you and Korie sat down and said, “OK, this is how we should do it,” or her saying, “This is what I want from you, Mom”?
Chrys: We did not. And I think that could work in some families. But because we’re so close and – with all three of my children – and they understood my parenting skills. And becoming a grandparent did not stop my parenting skills. I still use many of those techniques as I’m working with my grandchildren.
Jim: And Korie and Willie are comfortable with that. That makes a difference.
Chrys: Right. They’re very comfortable with that. And I think had we had some issues we would have been able to talk that through. Uh, but we really didn’t have any issues. That they felt comfortable with me. They gave me the freedom to be the parent I needed to be when they were in my home or the grandparent I needed to be. And because they were so close to us, sometimes there was more of a crossover to more parenting than grandparenting.
Chrys: Um, I have grandchildren who live seven hours away, and that’s a little bit different than the ones who actually live next door and in your house all the time.
Chrys: You have to be more mindful and more intentional, more influential in those daily things, those manners and habits and things like that that you want your children to have, just like you want your children to have.
Jim: You actually – during the taping of Duck Dynasty, you came on the set, and you helped the kids with schooling, so you kind of became the grandma tutor, right?
Chrys: I did. And that’s a God journey I think, you know? I think that’s where God takes you on a journey that you don’t really know where it’s going until the end.
Jim: Right, you just show up every day.
Chrys: Yeah, and I always wanted to be a teacher, and so my degree is in teaching. And – and then what I did with my degree as I discovered when I started teaching that there were just so many children that are not served in the school system. Kids who are not.. don’t have the difficulties that put them in special classes, but struggle in school. So, I created a program, and I called it the Soar program at our school, for kids who have just learning differences. Just have to learn a little bit different way.
Chrys: But that meant I tutored people from seventh grade to 12th grade, so really every subject matter. Well, little did I know that one day when Duck Dynasty would be filming they would say, “Well, the kids have to have a tutor on the set every day. They cannot film” – that’s a law – “A teacher has to be on the set with them.” And so Korie and I were talking like, OK, how are we gonna handle this? And I’m like, “Well, I’ll do it.” I mean, that’s just the natural thing. The kids were much younger, of course. And we wanted somebody with them on the set that could help them if they just had to come over and say, “I don’t know what to say here or do here,” or whatever. And so that of course fell to me. And I just thought God just was raising me up for that moment and – because they were at the time – River was, like, 5 and Reed was 17 and all the Robertson kids. So, it was a one room classroom like in the old days.
Chrys: Like, everybody would have to bring me their different thing…
Jim: It does. It sounds almost – and I use this word affectionately – like old-fashioned.
Chrys: It was.
Jim: I mean, you guys are all connected, you’re all integrated, even though you’re doing high-tech filming and, you know, a very successful show and all those things.
When you look at technology today, I would think one of the areas in parenting that’s been really difficult for a lot of families is how to manage your child’s tech consumption. So how does a grandparent not fumble that ball and try to reinforce those rules or come up with their own or even observations that they can say to their adult children, “You know, Johnny is spending a lot of time on the screen”? Those can be real tender areas. So, have you had that kind of issue?
Chrys: That can really be tender areas because this is an area that we’re not familiar with.
Chrys: Like, we did not grow up with this. But it’s huge today. And of course, you said in my intro that I – I work at a summer camp. I still run a summer camp and have a thousand kids go through there.
Chrys: So, I deal with children a lot. And this tech world is very, very scary. And I know you guys have covered a lot and hear parents have to be so aware of that and be so influential in that area. As a grandparent, I would respect what my children did. For Korie, all of her kids had to have their phone on the table in the kitchen at a certain time at night.
Jim: We do that, too.
Chrys: Well, Ryan did, too, my – my son, as well. And so, when they were at my house, rules applied the same way. Now, the great thing about being a grandparent is you can even do different things. Like, you can say, “When we’re all eating at our house, at grandma’s house, no technology. Every phone is put away. This is conversation. This is talking. This is time to be together.” And I had a little box – and I still have it – in the middle of my table, and the kids can pull out a question and ask questions. And they love that. They love being the one to pull out the question and be able to ask everybody. And even the – my youngest now is 14 and my oldest is 30, so we have lived through this now. And they’re all teenagers. And it’s just super fun. But we still have a lot of conversation. And because we’re the grandparent, we’re like – we’re old people. We can say, “Hey, no. We like to talk.”
Jim: (Laughter) Yeah, right. And they’ll accommodate you.
Chrys: They will.
John: To what extent, Chrys, do you as a grandparent actually use technology, social media and such, to connect with the grandkids?
Chrys: I do use it a lot because I learned that that is the way to connect with my kids now as they’re teenagers.
Chrys: So, I do. I’m on Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook. I’m on all of those. And we text all the time. We FaceTime all the time. I mean, that’s how I can help my ones who live in Huntsville pick out a dress for prom. They’ll FaceTime me, and I’ll watch and be able to help them.
John: I’m sure that that becomes kind of a badge of honor for a grandkid to be able to say, “Yeah, I’m Face Timing with my grandma.”
Chrys: They really do say that. It’s really funny.
John: That’s neat.
Chrys: And their friends are like, “Your grandma’s on the FaceTime?” I’m like, “Hey.” I just met one of their boyfriends last week on FaceTime.
John: Oh, my goodness.
Chrys: Yeah, got a new boyfriend. And they – they called, “2-mama, you want to meet Will?” I’m like, “Yeah.”
John: (Laughter) Well, we’re talking to rock star grandparent Chrys Howard, and that’s the title of her book, Rockstar Grandparent. We’ve got that and copies of this great conversation at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Or call us if you’d like to find out more about the many resources we have for grandparents. It’s 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459.
Jim: Chrys, another common response that we receive here at Focus is from grandparents who are watching their adult kids go through divorce and how that impacts the grandchildren. I know that’s been part of your family story, and you’re speaking from that experience. What can be done from a grandparenting standpoint? I mean, there are so many dangerous areas there for a grandparent and kind of difficult patches to walk through. How do you advise a grandparent to act, where to probe, where to back off? And then what do you do for the help of the grandchild to better cope with what’s going on?
Chrys: This is a very difficult subject and one that unfortunately happens way too often. And it did happen in our family. It wasn’t something that we ever thought would be a part of our story. But it is. And as a grandparent you are literally crushed for your grandchildren when you see that this is going to happen in their life. But for me, the thing that we made sure that we did was that things don’t change as far as our relationship with our grandkids and with our children. That we don’t make big moves, we don’t do anything that changes in how we interact with them. And I even told my – my children, I said, “We want to be very careful that we don’t use this event as an excuse for bad behavior or anything that we would not allow otherwise.”
Jim: What do they need from you as a grandparent?
Chrys: They need grandparents to be loving, supportive, secure. They are the security for them. When this happens in their family, the grandparents’ role is hugely important to say, “No, no, our family is fine. We are going to make it through this. We’re going to help you. We’re going to be there to do whatever you need. But you’re going to be fine. And we’re all gonna be fine. This will be OK.” And of course, there’s praying, and there’s conversation and all those things are involved. But the main thing is just providing that security that they need at that point. That they need to know, OK, this is the safe house. This is my safe – my grandparents are the safe place right now.
Jim: Let me – in the book, you mention this specific story. And, you know, I think one of your grandchildren, they were 5 years old. In this particular family, there were three young children, and that 5-year-old said to you, “Will you help us?” What did you say? I mean, that’s heart-wrenching when you hear that. But what did you respond with?
Chrys: That is gut-wrenching, yes. And so, what I said – and this is where we have to, like, really be adults in the whole thing. In the whole divorce situation, every adult involved has to be an adult. And that’s where I did not fall apart. That’s where I just picked her up and hugged her, and I said, “Absolutely. We are going to help you in any way you need help. You don’t worry about a thing. We have got this.”
Jim: So, you reassured the child.
Chrys: That’s right.
Jim: How about the God component of that? How did you – or did you – as a grandparent work in God’s desire for family? And, you know, his heart’s breaking too, just like yours. I mean, what kind of terminology did you use – or did you?
Chrys: We did. No, we absolutely did that. And we’ve said that to all of our children, “This is not God’s desire for family. God’s desire for family is that a man and woman stay together forever. But sometimes it doesn’t work that way. And here’s the thing, God still loves you and loves our family and is going to be with us and support us.” And I’m, you know, I’m here to say that those three kids from that particular family are now 17 – 15, 17 and 19. One heads off to Baylor this week. They’re just amazing kids. And I’m so honored to have been able to have a huge part in their life.
Jim: Well, when you think of that, the research will suggest that, you know, the supportive external family is really important in that moment. So, you all must have done a great job coming around those kids and helping them stabilize in a very destabilized environment, so well done.
Chrys: I think that – that is the key, just to stabilize when it doesn’t seem very stable.
Jim: Yeah, Chrys, I want to really nail what grandparenting provides. And you mention this in your great book, Rockstar Grandparent. You talk about the – the attributes the grandparent provides a grandchild. And parents need to understand this, because it doesn’t have to be – and shouldn’t be – adversarial. But you talk about grandparents teaching grandchildren to be hospitable, how to use words for good, how to love unconditionally, how to pray. These are all things parents want to teach as well. Why do grandparents, uh, have the benefit of being able to either introduce or reinforce these things?
Chrys: Well, we mentioned it a little bit earlier. Grandparents should have a little more time on their hands. And that time allows them that – more of that time that’s that one-on-one. Like grandparents love to take their kids – grandkids – camping or time when they’re just have them by themselves. And so, you can use those moments.
But also, here’s the thing. You’re teaching while they’re watching you be hospitable, while they’re watching you use words for good. And that means even in divorce situations. That means even if you don’t agree with a parent. That means even if you don’t agree with what the grandchild is doing but using your words wisely and being – using words that influence in a good way. So, it’s not necessarily that we have to do anything differently. We just have to model those things that we want our children. It’s like our own children. If you want that 5-year-old to grow up and be a certain way, guess what? You have to do those things that will help ensure that. There’s no guarantees. Parenting doesn’t guarantee the perfect child because we all have the freedom to think and do and do what we want to do.
Jim: Make choices.
Chrys: And grand parenting is the same way. But grandparents can be that extra level, that extra layer that our children need, especially in today’s world. They need all the reinforcement they can get. A lot like – can look like when you’re doing it the right way, when you’re living it God’s way and laying those examples out for them of being hospitable and having good manners and being kind and considerate and speaking life into people.
Jim: Yeah, that’s good. Now I’m assuming your husband is 2-pa.
Jim: OK, that was a good guess.
Chrys: That was good.
Jim: But, uh, did you kind of get together at some point say, “What’s our grand-parenting plan?” I’m thinking of the first-borns, John.
John: Thank you. Yes, I have not gotten there.
Jim: But, I mean, does it need to be that intentional? Is it wise to say, you know, when you have your first grandchild, do you say, “OK, what do we want to do as grandparents now that we are grandparents? What do we want to accomplish here?”
Chrys: I think it’s good to be intentional like that. I don’t know that we necessarily did. We were a little bit younger for grandparents. I say that.
Jim: Say that again. Say that again (laughter).
Chrys: I will say that. We were – I was 42, which is pretty young. So, we were still in the middle of our big careers…
Jim: That is young.
Chrys: …And working. And, you know, we had a lot going on in life. So, I don’t know that we sat down and did that intentionally, but we intentionally have always done that with our family. And it’s in the book. We have our – I don’t know – 58 principles of living, you know?
Chrys: Yeah, we have a lot.
Jim: That’s good.
John: She’s probably a first-born, Jim.
Chrys: I’m not. I’m not. My husband is, yes. And he really, really wanted this done. And we also have a family mission statement. And so that is, you know, we know what we want to accomplish with our children and our grandchildren without sitting down and thinking that through. But yes, there have been conversation, yeah, for sure.
Jim: Yeah, there’s a funny aspect, and I think grand parenting has the opportunity to be filled with humor…
Chrys: Oh, absolutely.
Jim: …I mean, and which I think is great. But you and your husband John, you were trying to practice a lip – lip-syncing thing. What was going on with that?
Chrys: OK, we were – every year for Christmas, we have Christmas at my house. It’s a huge Christmas. And we don’t exchange gifts. The gift is what you bring – your talent. So, everybody – it’s a huge talent show. It’s the craziest thing ever. And so, this past – that year, a couple years ago, I decided that we were going to lip-sync to the Frozen song…
Chrys: …And do it live. And so, I was making him practice with me. Of course, men aren’t always game for the things that us women dream up. But anyway, I was…
Jim: Especially crazy things.
Chrys: And crazy thing. So, we were driving to Hatsfield (ph) to see the grandkids. And we were practicing, and he just was not taking it seriously.
Jim: That’s a seven-hour drive, right?
Chrys: Seven hours. I’m like…
Jim: Poor John.
Chrys: “…How could you not know these words in seven hours?” So anyway, he said, “No, I really am getting it. I’m getting it.” So, I put the camera up to film him to show him. I didn’t have good motives. I was going to show him that he really wasn’t doing his job. Okay? Well, it was so hilariously funny that we ended up just showing that on the screen for our talent at Christmas. And the kids just were dying because we’d never done anything like that at all in our whole, crazy life. And so, it was just a fun way to show them – and we started it off by saying, “You know, y’all go with us almost everywhere we go. But sometimes, we’re alone. And we want to show you what we do when we’re alone.” Then we hit the button, and so they just loved it. And yes, grand parenting is the time to be fun. And you – both of you guys are going to be the best grandparents.
Jim: Oh, yay (laughter).
Chrys: You love fun. And it’s just – but it’s just fun, yes.
Jim: I like it. Hey, at the end here, it’s really important to talk about faith. And a lot of grandparents are stressed out because, you know, again, their adult children are running fast. And they may not be able to pay attention to faith development in their kids the way the grandparents would hope. I mean, I’m just staging this. It’s a lot of different scenarios. But for some reason, the grandparents could be worried that the kids aren’t getting enough spiritual input. What do you do? What are things that a grandparent can do to augment appropriately what mom and dad aren’t able to get to?
Chrys: Well, we know that even biblically how important grandparents are to their grandchildren. Uh, we see that model even in the Bible. And we’ve seen that model for years in our – our growth as adults and in our faith. We’ve watched grandparents model that for their – their grandchildren. But some specific things that we can do in today’s world is because we can text them, and we can send Scriptures. And we can say, “I’m – I see you have a dentist appointment today. I’m praying for you today,” or, “I see you’re trying out for cheerleader. I’m praying that you do the best job, and everything comes to you.” And it’s just keeping that before them that you’re – you depend on God to help them with their daily life. And, of course, inviting them. When your kids are little, the little ones you can invite to whatever your church has, Vacation Bible School, summer camps, things like that, making sure that’s available for your – your grandchildren. And most parents are happy with that, that you’ll help in any way. So just keeping that before them, keeping your faith before them, letting them know the legacy of your faith. We tell that to our kids quite often about how their great-grandfather – what he did, what he started and how it’s still going on so that they’re aware of that.
Chrys: So, modeling that, showing them that history, modeling that right behavior and then pouring out to them through texting and verbal and things that you say to them. And – yeah.
Jim: That’s good, that quality time and – and just ample time…
Jim: …Is what I’m hearing and make sure those – those fundamental values are transferred to the grandkids. Chrys, this has been great. Your wonderful book, Rockstar Grandparent, um, it’s a good resource. One that, John, you and I are gonna have to keep on the shelf maybe…
John: I am not letting go of my copy. Yeah.
Jim: …For a couple of years. (Laughter) And then – and then we’re gonna pull it down, and we’re gonna do it. So, thank you so much for being with us.
Chrys: Thank you for having me.
Jim: Let me turn to you, the listener. Uh, we’re here for you. I mean, you might be in a – a difficult position as a grandparent. There might be some spiritual strife – we didn’t cover that one – um, you know, where there’s a disagreement on how to talk to the grandkids about faith and those things. Uh, we’re here for you. Call us. We have caring Christian counselors that can help you, uh, think through how to go about doing that.
Plus, we have, uh, Chrys’ wonderful book available for you.
And if you can make a gift of any amount, um, we’ll say thank you by sending Chrys’ book to you. Maybe it’s a monthly gift or maybe a one-time gift. If you can’t afford it, we’ll get it in your hands. Others, I trust, will take care of the expense of that.
John: Yeah. We really would encourage you to become a monthly supporter of Focus on the Family. And, uh, a gift of any amount, uh, either that monthly gift or a one-time gift, as Jim said, makes a big difference for us and, uh, allows us to reach out and offer great encouragement, like we’ve done today. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. And online we’re at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.