Spouse: Well, I think the most important letter in the alphabet for marriage is the letter F for forgiveness.
Spouse 2: I think the most important letter is A, and I think the word that goes with that is acceptance.
Spouse 3: I think the most important letter is S, because S stands for selflessness.
Spouse 4: Most important letter is P for prayer.
Spouse 5: I think L because listening is so important in a marriage, to be able to sit down and hear what your spouse has to say.
John Fuller: Well, what do you think? Uh, what letter of the alphabet, uh, do you have for your marriage? Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we’re gonna be exploring some simple ways that you can really revolutionize your relationship with your spouse. I’m John Fuller and we’re so glad you’ve joined us.
Jim Daly: It’s good nobody said F.
John: (laughs)
Jim: I think we’d all go, “What?” But it could be friendship. That’s a good one.
John: There you go.
Jim: Not a letter grade like failure, right?
Tori Benham: (laughs)
Jim: Uh, but, you know, the longer I’ve been married, the more I realize that it’s not the big things that destroy marriage. Those things do, whether it’s addiction, infidelity, you know, those big things that can happen. But over time, all the little things can add up to drifting apart and no longer being in love with each other.
John: Mm.
Jim: So today we wanna cover those A-to-Z ideas. And it gives us a simple framework with our guests to kind of better understand what to think about when you’re in that moment with your spouse, and what you need to do to preserve and grow and deepen your love in your marriage.
John: Mm-hmm. And Jason and Tori Benham are back with us today, and, uh, they’ve developed a list of 30, uh, different, simple, uh, effective ideas that couples can use to strengthen their relationship. And these are things you can start doing today. Uh, so the Benham’s were here last year, and we covered just a few items from those 30. And, uh, Jason and Tori are relationship coaches and speakers and authors. And they’ve got a podcast, it’s great. You should listen. It’s called Beauty in Battle. And the list they’ve developed is, well, more or less based on their book, Marriage A to Z. It’s got more than 26. It’s got 30 ways, uh, 30 days.
Jim: There’s four more letters.
John: Indeed.
Jim: (laughs)
John: To relational transformation. You can learn more about the Benham’s in this great little book at our website.
Jim: Jason and Tori, welcome back. It’s good to finish the alphabet with you.
John: (laughs)
Tori: Thank you. So good to be here.
Jim: (laughs) Reminds me of third grade.
John: Yeah.
Jim: A, B, C, D.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Do you guys still have to sing the alphabet to get to the letter you need?
Jason Benham: No.
Jim: (laughs)
Jason: But, you know, here’s the crazy thing.
Jim: Do you ever do that?
Tori: Yes.
Jim: A, B, C, D, E, F, G.
Tori: Oh, all the time.
Jason: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Jim: Yeah. Yeah. G.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Okay, that’s the one.
Jason: I had the idea for this book and I said, “Okay, let’s do 30 principles.”
Jim: (laughs)
Jason: Which would be a principle a day for a month, 30 principles-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … to marriage transformation. I was like, “And I’ll follow the alphabet.” Now, I got an 820 on my SAT.
Tori: (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jason: Then I decided to count how many letters (laughs) were in the alphabet, and I realized there was only 26.
John: (laughs)
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: So we just added a few at the end.
Tori: A couple bonus letters.
John: You plussed it.
Jim: I think that’s awesome.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: (laughs)
Jim: I love that. But you could, you go with AA and BB.
Jason: Yeah. Yeah, you can.
Jim: And that’s what you do.
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: That’s exactly what I did. Yeah.
Jim: Well, it is fun. It, you know, the, the one I wanted to start with today, and again, if people miss it, they can go to the archives, get the app for the phone and you can listen to it that way or go to the website. But, uh, let’s start with Z.
John: (laughs)
Jason: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Jim: Just to go right to the most difficult of all letters.
Jason: Yeah, yeah.
Jim: What’d you come up with Z?
Jason: Well, you know, I remember looking at that and I thought, “Well, where am I gonna get Z?” And I looked up the word, ’cause I was looking for something that involved humor, and I looked up the word zanyism.
Tori: Hmm.
Jim: Okay.
Jason: So like zany.
Jim: Uh-huh.
Jason: And, uh, and it’s all about humor. And I started talking to Tori and I was like, “You know, one of the things that has helped us a lot in marriage, specifically when it comes to conflict-”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: “… is having a little bit of a sense of humor.”
Tori: So true.
Jason: And, uh-
Jim: Yeah, let me test that. Tori, is that true?
Tori: (laughs) It is absolutely true.
Jim: (laughs) Did you appreciate those funny jokes right at the heat of battle with, uh-
Tori: No.
Jim: … your hubby?
Tori: That, yeah, no, you ha-
Jim: (laughs) Timing’s everything, yes.
Tori: Timing is everything.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: But we have learned that you don’t have to take yourself so serious. And the biggest problem that we ran into at the beginning of our relationship was taking things too seriously, especially for me. I was, um, I just took things really seriously. And then as we began to laugh about things, and then we kind of, you know, have our own little sense of humor over… We, we have, like, lines from movies that we now break the ice with. When things get a little bit heated, we have our little lines that we’re like, “You know what? It’s really not that big of a deal.” And we can just make, make fun of each other.
Jim: That’s good.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Do you have a little movie line example for us?
Jason: I used one this morning.
Jim: Okay, that’s perfect. (laughs)
Jason: Uh, from Home Alone 2–
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … when he’s in his, uh, he’s in bed. And a guy is there scooping him ice cream and then he says, uh, the guy says, “Would you like another scoop?” And he’s like, “Hey, I’m not driving.”
Jim: (laughs)
Jason: And then he puts it in there.
Tori: Yeah, yeah.
Jason: And, you know, we weren’t in a fight or anything-
Jim: I like it.
Jason: … but I’m like, “I’m not driving.” You know, so-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Let’s get another scoop.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: It is funny though, little things like that, and we always encourage couples, “Hey, find a show that you can watch together that makes you laugh. Like find a, a comedian that makes you laugh together, some movies.”
Jim: That’s good.
Jason: “And pick a few of those lines.”
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: “And then at any moment when things get a little heated-”
Jim: Hmm.
Jason: … maybe pull out a line or two and then just be, you know, have a good laugh with each other.”
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: It helps a lot in marriage.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: Yeah. It’s kind of just a reminder, it’s, it’s okay for us to laugh. (laughs) One of the ones that I think about all the time is the one from Night at the Museum. There, have you guys watched-
Jim: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Tori: … the Night at the Museum? And there’s the guy Brendan and there’s a scene with him and it’s just the funniest scene. At one point he looks at, who’s-
Jason: Uh-uh.
Tori: Who’s the actor?
Jason: Ben Stiller.
Tori: Ben Stiller and he says, “And you know what? Be nice to people.” And we say that to each other all the time-
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: … when things are like-
Jim: Be nice to people.
Tori: … you know, we’re not being that real, real nice and things are getting, like, a little heated. We’re like, “You know what? Be nice to people.” (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jim: We love that movie ’cause his, the name, the actor, the character name is Daley.
Jason: (laughs)
Tori: Oh, oh, that’s right. Yeah.
Jim: That is Larry Daley.
Jason: Larry Daley.
Tori: Yeah, that’s right. (laughs)
Jim: We like the Darth Vader scene-
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … where he’s going, “What are you, asthmatic?”
Tori: Yeah. (laughs)
Jason: Oh, yeah. (laughs)
Tori: Yes.
Jim: I lost it at that point.
Tori: So funny.
Jim: Okay, we got Z. Now M, moving toward your mate. This may be when you look at this wonderful little quick read, really-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … Marriage A to Z: 30 Days to Relational Transformation. I mean, this thing, it’s like a pocket reference thing.
Tori: Yes.
Jason: We made it a gift book on purpose.
Tori: Throw it in your purse.
Jim: But you look at moving for M, moving toward your mate. Okay, when you’re having a disagreement, I know folks are gonna, you know, send us a note saying, “I never argue with m-” That is awesome.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: Way to go.
Jason: Good for you.
Jim: Most of us will have some disagreements.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And the most difficult time to move toward your mate-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … is at the, the moment of disagreement-
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that’s, like, crazy.
Jason: Oh, yeah.
Jim: So how do you, how do you do that emotionally-
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: We-
Jim: … when you’re kind of at odds with each other?
Jason: Here’s the crazy thing. Dr. John Gottman, foremost researcher on all things marriage. He said, uh, out of 50 years of studying marriages, he said the ones that are the most healthy are the ones where, when conflict happens, people move toward their mate. And not just conflict. If I reach out to Tori and I’m like, gonna go grab her hand, she responds positively to that and, you know, grabs my hand. If I put my arm around her, she kind of snuggles up into my arm. So when I’m moving toward her, she moves toward me. The difficult part is when you’re at odds with each other.
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: And that’s why even science has come out now, research has come out now that shows that, like, 20 seconds of physical touch, like, just a hug can reset things emotionally for you. So when things get a little heated, sometimes Tori and I will reach out, we’ll kinda grab hands, hold hands a little bit, or we might force a hug in that moment and you’re moving toward your mate.
Jim: (laughs)
Jason: It really does reset things.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Yeah, I love the forced hug.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: I’m just laughing at that.
Tori: Force hug, yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
Tori: Uh, years ago I was certified as an emotional intelligent coach. And I learned so much during that season of just self-awareness. The first quadrant of emotional intelligence is self-awareness.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: And one of the things that I learned about myself is that I move away from Jason in conflict, and that was very eye-opening to me because I actually, because I wasn’t aware of it.
Jim: Really?
Tori: I wasn’t able to-
Jim: I would think that’s normal-
Tori: Right.
Jim: … for all of us. That’s the normal reaction like, “Okay, I’m going to a different room.”
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: She-
Jim: “I’m laying on the opposite side of the bed facing the-”
Jason: She really moved away from me.
Tori: Yeah. (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Jason: It was like, “Get away.”
Tori: But for me, I wasn’t even self-aware. I wasn’t aware enough to know that it was happening, that every time there was a conflict my initial reaction was to move away, to get quiet, to distance myself. And as I began to learn, “Oh my goodness, this is not working for our relationship.” I began to learn how to move into that next quadrant of emotional intelligence which is self-management.
Jim: Ah.
Tori: So now that I know that I’m doing this, what can I do about it? And so I began to practice, okay, doing the very opposite of the thing that I wanna do in that moment, which is to pull away, to distance myself, to get quiet, kind of cold shoulder him and to actually take a step in the other direction and to move towards him, do something that’s uncomfortable, right? And this is a part of marriage that’s so important that we grow in flexibility, right? Like, it is not… Like, for me that, I was very inflexible in that area.
Jim: Hmm.
Tori: And so I had to do what we do when we’re inflexible physically, and I had to lean in and stretch and do something uncomfortable to grow in flexibility. So, that really was a practice that I began to do years ago, and it was really helpful for our relationship.
Jason: It’s not to say though that in the moment of battle you can’t pull away just for 20 minutes or whatever-
Tori: Right.
Jason: … ’cause, you know-
Jim: It might be helpful. (laughs)
Jason: … flooding is a thing.
Tori: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Jason: Flooding is a thing and the 20-minute rule is, it takes sometimes 20 minutes of, you know, I’m gonna go in line-
Jim: Chill time.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: … chill and then come back together. The idea is don’t stay away.
Tori: Right.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: Come back together and move toward each other even when you don’t want to.
John: I appreciate that clarification because I don’t think I’m alone in this.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
John: There was a moment where we were having some words and I wanted to fix the problem, and so I moved in to hug her-
Tori: Hmm.
John: … and she said, “Not now.”
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: Yeah. Yeah.
John: And that was good emotional intelligence of her own wellbeing.
Tori: Yes. Yes.
John: And it set a boundary.
Tori: Yes.
John: And I was kind of wounded. I’m like-
Jason: Mm-hmm.
John: … “Can’t we just hug and get over this?”
Jason: Right.
Tori: Yes.
John: So there has to be space.
Tori: Yes.
John: And I like the 20-minute rule.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Yes.
John: That’s, that’s good because sometimes we guys want to have a simple fix.
Jim: Let me ask you, in terms of love language. You know, we’ve had Gary Chapman here where all well-
Jason: Yeah, he’s awesome.
Jim: … prepared in the love language.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Uh, physical touch is one.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that’s kind of maybe not your language-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … Tori, but you were expressing it if you moved in-
Tori: Yeah, exactly.
Jim: … uh, rather than pulling back.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: The one that you do possess that we know about is really the idea of quality time.
Tori: Yes.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: So how did that work when you’re going well and doing well as a couple-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … it’s probably easy, but when it’s a little harder-
Tori: Yes.
Jim: … how do you get quality time-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … with Jason?
Tori: Well, when Jason and I, when we first got married that was my primary love language, and Jason’s was not. Uh, and so we talked about it and Jason became aware of that love language, and I became aware of his. And you can tell him the story of how-
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: … the Lord really changed your love language through you pursuing me through mine.
Jason: Yeah. And you know, it’s crazy ’cause Dr. Gary Chapman, he’s a hero of ours.
Jim: Oh, yeah.
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: We love him. You know my primary love language when we first got married: physical touch, words of affirmation-
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: … which is most of the guys out there.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: Bottom of my list was quality time and, um, gifts. And, uh, but I tell couples all the time that, and Gary Thomas, I think, is the one that coined this. “God is not just your Father, He’s your Father-in-Law.”
Tori: Hmm.
Jim: (laughs) That’s good.
Jason: And can you imagine how much your Father-in-Law-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … is gonna help you when He sees you loving His son or daughter-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … in a way that might not be your natural way? So I knew hers was quality time. So for 20 plus years, I was spending quality time with her even in those times where I didn’t want to.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: Well, do you know I took that test again? ‘Cause Dr. Chapman came up with it online a year ago and, you know, we’ve been married for 25 years a few weeks ago. So I’m 24 years into marriage and I took that test again. You wanna know what my number one love language was?
Jim: Hmm.
Jason: Quality time.
Jim: Wow.
Jason: That my father-in-law-
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: … God, transformed my heart.
John: Uh-huh.
Jason: And he can do that to anybody. There are probably some people listening right now that think, you know, “I can’t, I’ll never be that, I can’t do that for my husband or my wife or whatever.” Do it.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: And when, you know, the essential element of love is sacrifice. And when you sacrifice, God, your Father, who is also your Father-in-Law, will bring the transformation that’s needed in your heart-
John: Hmm.
Jason: … and your mind, and your life and He’ll transform your relationship.
Jim: So how did you move toward physical touch?
Tori: Okay. This is really interesting.
Jason: Yeah, explain that one.
Tori: I feel like it’s so important that you value each love language, right? That there has, you have to be able to see each of them and see value in each of them. And, um, I remember a time where I began to learn the value of physical touch. I was listening to a podcast on neuroscience, and they were talking about how it regulates the body, how it’s so important to have physical touch.
Jason: Hmm.
Tori: And that when you’re holding your spouse’s hand that your body’s actually being regulated. And sometimes when you’re highly anxious and you just hold somebody’s hand or you give them a 20 second hug, it actually regulates your nervous system. And so, I actually began to value that love language, the love language of physical touch, which I didn’t really value before. I thought it was stupid. I felt like it was always leaning in one direction that I didn’t wanna go all the time, right? Like, there was just…I didn’t really value it, but as I began to value it and to reach for Jason and to think, “You know, this is really good for me. Oh wow, I actually do feel my body regulating,” and I actually now have become a physical touch girl as, as well because-
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: … I just kinda leaned into something that I didn’t think that I liked and began to value it.
Jim: That is good and healthy. Yeah.
Jason: Speaking of physical touch-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … can I say something real quick, spirit of full disclosure. When they were talking about the favorite letters, uh, earlier at the beginning of the show-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … and the guy said S. “Selfless” was not the first word that came in my mind.
Tori: (laughs)
John: (laughs) The letter S stood for something else?
Jim: And neither there is that kind of physical touch.
Tori: Go figure. (laughs)
Jason: That’s true.
Jim: What Gary’s talking about is, you know, just the warmth of touch.
Jason: That’s right.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: You know, hand on shoulder, fingers through hair.
Tori: Yes.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … whatever it might be, hugs.
Jason: Thank you for that correction.
Jim: Yeah, sorry.
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: (laughs)
Jim: Well, if he were here, I’m defending Gary.
Jason: Yeah, you are.
Jim: ‘Cause every guy goes, “What’s your love language?” “Physical touch.”
Jason: “Physical touch.”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And he has to say, “It’s not that.”
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: Yeah. Right.
Tori: Yeah, exactly.
Jim: So we’ve heard it a few times.
John: We have, yeah, you have.
Jim: But hey, let me ask you, D for dominion. Dominion seems like-
Jason: Hmm.
Jim: … such a King James word.
Jason: Yeah. Yes.
Tori: (laughs)
Jim: I mean, dominion.
Jason: It’s a beautiful word.
Jim: It feels even like we shouldn’t say that word.
Jason: Yeah. Right.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: It’s the “D word.”
Tori: Hmm.
Jim: Dominion. What does it mean?
Jason: Well, dominion was our very first blessing that God gave to Adam and Eve in the Garden. You know, it’s, “Have dominion over the garden.” And then He’s, “Be fruitful and multiply,” right? So dominion is taking authority for the place where God has put you, and you need to have authority in your marriage.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: You know, as husbands, our relationships with God is tied to our relationship with our wife. We see that in the New Testament where God’s like, “I’m not even listening to your prayers because of the way that you’re treating the wife of your youth.”
John: Hmm.
Jason: So God is like, “You need to have dominion in every area of your life.”
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: And the primary one is right there with God’s daughter. The primary is right there with God’s son. And so that’s what we’re talking about, dominion. You know, responsibility and authority go hand in hand.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: That, you know, authority is the right to use power. And the key to keeping your authority is staying in the place of your responsibility. Where was Adam when Eve was conversing with the serpent? He was standing right next to her-
John: Hmm.
Jason: … because she ate the fruit and turned and gave it to him. Well, he was not exercising dominion in that moment.
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: He should have had dominion in the relationship and dominion over the snake, stepped in front and goes, “Hey, when I named you, you didn’t talk. Why are you talking to her?”
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: “If you’re gonna talk to her, you’re gonna come through me first,” right? But he didn’t exercise dominion-
John: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … and therefore he lost his authority.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: So that’s what we’re talking about for dominion. Take dominion in your relationship.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah, that’s good. I think it’s directive.
Tori: Hmm.
John: Yeah. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and today our guests are Tori and Jason Benham and we’re talking about their great little book, Marriage A to Z: 30 Days to Relational Transformation. And, uh, we’ll encourage you to stop by our website to get a copy of it and that’s focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And, uh, continuing this thought, Jason, you had a story about playing baseball that related to this that I thought was kinda interesting.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: We would have thought that, the baseball player.
John: Yeah, player.
Jason: Right? I remember being eight years old and I looked on the schedule, and we had to play and we just went by colors back then.
Jim: (laughs)
Jason: We didn’t have, like, cool names, you know. I’m playing baseball in little league, and we had to play the red team. And on the red team was a guy named Brent Murphy, and Brent Murphy was the most feared pitcher in all of the world.
Jim: He had a 75 mile an hour softball.
Jason: No, he threw a thousand miles an hour.
Jim: (laughs)
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: And the ball was on fire when he threw it.
Jim: Yes, smoking.
Jason: And nobody wanted to hit against him and I was so scared. And when we got to the field, I saw him out there warming up and my heart was just pounding, and I was, like, the third hole hitter. I was a good hitter. And, uh, first guy gets up, he strikes out. Next guy is up and I’m on deck and my heart is pounding and I’m just like, “Uh, this is not gonna work.” So I faked a sickness.
John: Hmm.
Jason: I walked over to my coach at third base and I was like, “I think my, my stomach is hurting. I think I’m sick.” And he goes, “Oh, by all means, go sit down.” And then I go and so I don’t get to hit, and I go and I sit down on the bench. And I look over at my dad, and my dad knows exactly what I did. I wimped out.
John: Hmm.
Jason: I didn’t take dominion in that moment, and I became a spectator in a game I was made to play. You know what? I think there are a lot of spouses that are spectators in a game that they should be playing. You gotta get out there on the field. And you know what? Fear is gonna present itself, but courage isn’t a thing if fear doesn’t first show up.
John: Hmm.
Jason: We don’t, you can’t be courageous if fear doesn’t show up. So you gotta face your fear, whatever that is. If you gotta go deep into your history and talk about some things you hadn’t talked with your spouse about, if you’ve got to move forward toward your spouse when you don’t want to, face those fears and then ultimately you’ll not find yourself spectating, but you’ll actually be in the game playing and you can play to win.
John: Hmm.
Jim: Yeah. I give you kudos for saying that. (laughs)
John: Yeah.
Jim: I’m sitting here going, “Okay, that’s gutsy.”
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: (laughs)
Jim: For a guy to say “I wimped out” ’cause, uh-
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: I did.
Jim: … if we were a little younger, I’d be all over you.
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: Yeah. Thank you.
Jim: Like, “What are you talking about?”
Tori: (laughs)
Jim: But it’s true. It’s a good, it’s a good analysis-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … or a good analogy for how-
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … we do that emotionally as well.
Jason: Said from the guy who can’t even throw a fastball anymore-
Tori: Hmm.
Jason: … ’cause you had rotator cuff surgery twice.
Jim: Yeah, thanks. My rotator… Yeah I’m coming back.
Tori: (laughs)
Joh Fuller: You’re becoming a southpaw.
Jim: You watch out, you watch out.
John: He’s been practicing “lefty’s.”
Jim: Tori, you have to represent all women here at the table ’cause you are the woman at the table.
Tori: Okay.
Jason: Yeah, you are.
Jim: But when you, when it comes to affection-
Tori: Hmm.
Jim: … now we’re gonna move a little bit in the other direction-
Tori: Hmm.
Jim: … or in a further direction of physical touch. But when we’re talking about affection-
Tori: Hmm.
Jim: … uh, you also mentioned that, um, instead of waiting for the right mood. We’ve got to be available-
Tori: Hmm.
Jim: … both husband and wife. The shoe’s sometimes on the other foot with this, so I don’t want to make that-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … a gender stereotype. But most often it’s the man who is thinking affection a little more deeply.
Tori: Right.
Jim: But speak to that issue of being available-
Tori: Hmm.
Jim: … both ways, husband and wife being able to-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … um, send the signal-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … of affection is desired.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: How do we get into a healthier place? I’m telling you, and I, people watching-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … and listening know this, this is like the number one issue in marriage.
Tori: Hmm.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Negotiating physical intimacy.
Tori: Wow. Yeah.
Jim: Um, it’s just, it becomes a problem-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … for some reason, I think the enemy of our soul works incredible mischief-
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … in this area.
John: That’s good.
Tori: Yeah. I totally can attest to that. Um, I think it’s a mindset. I think that our mindset has to be right. And I think that sometimes, I think for women, um, I know for myself, that I kind of grew up thinking that affection and intimacy, and to be blunt, sex, was for the man. And I did not, um, I didn’t see it as something that was a blessing to me. And so that had to change. That mindset had to change that God created intimacy. He created affection for me and for Jason. And as I began to see the blessing of it and to receive the gift that it was for me, I was able to give it in a, in a better, more healthy way. But I think it was definitely a mindset, and I also think that as women we go through seasons of childbearing and where we are, you know, “touched out.”
Jim: Yeah. Yeah.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: I call it “touched out” where kids are touching and clawing and, you know, I have a picture of one of our kids, their hand is under the bathroom door. I said, “I can’t escape,” right?
Jason: (laughs)
Tori: Like, you can’t escape.
Jason: Yes.
Tori: And, um-
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: … and so I think there are seasons of that where you start to devalue the, um, intimacy and the things that overwhelm you.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: And I think that for me, I had to get to a place where, where it’s like, “Okay, my mindset is getting a little bit off here. I’m not seeing it as a blessing. I’m not seeing it as a good thing.” And then to be able to, I think that we also, women, need time to do that, to get into the right mindset. You know, that it can’t just be expected that we can just drop everything. Like, I think a man’s brain is a little bit more compartmentalized.
Jim: You think?
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
Tori: (laughs) Yeah. Things are kind of in boxes and he can go from this to this in 0.5 seconds. Whereas a woman, everything’s a little bit more connected. It takes us a little bit more time to get there. So men, if they can be patient with us, for us to make that transfer and for us to get into the mindset that we need to-
Jason: And you know, I’ve heard Tori counsel a lot of women during this time where she’s like, “Okay, you gotta change your mindset.”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: “And then you need some time to yourself. And with that time, what you need to be focusing on is appreciation for your husband.”
Tori: Yeah, that’s so true.
Jason: “Actually start appreciating him.”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: “Like, notice the things that-”
Jim: ‘Cause that’s the doorway for a woman.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: It, it’s not like men.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, like, men, it’s purely the physical thing. And I don’t mean to make it simplistic and you send me a note and, you know, all that.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: But realistically, generally, that’s it. Women need a different type of framework-
Tori: Yes.
Jim: … to say, “Okay, this helps me to get there.”
Tori: Right. Yes.
Jim: And that’s, you know, connection-
Tori: Yes.
Jim: … and emotional attachment.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: And we’re, you’re blowing our mind like, “What?”
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: “What? How does that connect with that?” (laughs)
Jason: And a guy-
Tori: Yes.
Jim: But it does.
Tori: Yes.
Jason: And the, and they, and we need to understand that for a woman and a husband, it’s not wrong for her to talk about rewarding her husband if he can help her get to that place.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: For her to say, “Hey, listen, if you can actually, like, vacuum the floor and then-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: “… get all the kids ready for bed, give me some time-
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: “… and then later tonight…” Like, that’s not manipulation, that’s motivation.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: You’re gonna find him very motivated to-
Jim: (laughs)
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: … to do those things, and that is a very good and healthy… I mean, God is a rewarder-
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … of us.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: It talks all throughout scripture how He rewards.
Jim: Well, well, and the other thing, like you guys say, be out there and use it humorously. I mean-
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Right.
Jim: … you know? Identify it, have fun with it.
Tori: Yes. Yeah.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Exactly.
Jim: I’m gonna be vacuuming tonight.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: So-
John: (laughs)
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: And you could say-
Tori: Got anymore chores for me?
Jim: … well, it’s gonna take dishes and laundry-
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: (laughs)
Jim: … on top of it or whatever it might be.
Tori: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Jim: Let’s move into K, kill the crazy-
Jason: Yes.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … with a K, crazy with a K.
Jason: That’s right.
Jim: Speak to kill the crazy, what is the crazy and how do we kill it?
Jason: What I’m talking about is if you know that you do something that annoys your spouse, stop it.
Jim: (laughs) Oh, man.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: Like what-
Jim: Dagger through the heart right there. Okay.
Jason: Why do we need to go any further on this?
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: It’s not like, “Oh, this is just who I am.” If you know that it’s something that’s really bothersome to your spouse, then quit.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Give me an example.
Jason: Bad breath.
Tori: (laughs)
Jim: Well, how do you quit that?
Jason: Well, you, you chew gum.
Jim: Okay.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: You know, like if you’re-
Jim: Do you have one that’s a little more manageable? (laughs)
John: (laughs)
Jason: Yeah, yeah. But whatever it is, um, using the restroom and the seat always, you know, stays up.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: Okay. I’m doing really well at that one.
Jason: Okay.
Tori: Good job.
Jason: It’s like, okay, you’re done. You’re guy.
Jim: I’m a getting a gold star for that.
Tori: Yes.
Jason: I tell you what, do her a favor and put the seat down.
Jim: Yes.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: You know, or-
Jim: Never thought it would get to that, right?
John: Well, here we are.
Jason: Or if you’re still in junior high and you don’t raise the seat up before you use the restroom-
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: … wipe it off.
John: Yeah.
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: Like, it’s little things.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: But Tori, that communicates, “I see you, I care about you.” I mean, it sounds-
Tori: It does. It absolutely does.
Jim: … silly, and that’s, like, a minor example.
Tori: Yes. Yes, it does.
Jim: But you know it-
Tori: It communicates, “I care, I see you, I’m listening.” I love the quote that we have for this chapter and it’s, uh, what is, it says, um, “Some people don’t know they’re being annoying, which is even more annoying.”
Jason: (laughs)
Tori: And that is so true, right?
Jim: Right.
Tori: Like, the awareness is so important. Some- you don’t know you’re being annoying, which makes it even more annoying. So I think that the awareness of bringing awareness to it, it’s like, “Oh, this really drives him crazy. Maybe, uh, there’s something I can do about this.”
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Case in point is the seat, toilet seat. That was something that Jason- and the middle of the night is the worst because it’s dark.
Jason: Hmm.
Jim: Jason.
Tori: I don’t turn the lights on.
Jim: Jason.
Jason: I know.
Tori: And so I was like, “It’s really getting bothersome.” And he just couldn’t remember in the middle of the night to, to put it down. And then I was like, “Oh, man, babe, you did it again, and I almost fell in the toilet.” (laughs)
Jim: And I guess there you have it. Uh, getting to the basics here on Focus on the Family by falling in the toilet. Uh, we don’t normally tackle tough topics like this, but-
John: You know, seat management is an important-
Jim: (laughs)
John: … topic in many households. It’s very serious.
Jim: Well, it starts, like, at about one and a half, right?
John: (laughs)
Jim: You gotta get that toddler up there. But, uh, let me tell you, seat management, that’s pretty funny and what a great conversation with Jason and Tori today.
It was so practical and honoring of both spouses and marriage, husbands and wives. Uh, we can’t afford to take each other for granted, especially after 20 or 30 or more years. If you want a strong and healthy relationship that will last your lifetime, you need the principles in the Benham’s book, Marriage A to Z: 30 Days to Relational Transformation. Contact us to get a copy. Make a monthly pledge of any amount. Let’s help other couples as well and we’ll put this book into your hands. That’s our way of saying thanks for partnering with us to help those marriages thrive too.
John: And of course, if a monthly pledge is more than you can do right now, a generous one-time gift also helps. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or you can donate and get a copy of that book, Marriage A to Z at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And while you’re there, another resource we have is our free marriage assessment, which is easy, it’s online, it’s going to help you identify strengths in your relationship and maybe an area or two of improvement. And, uh, it’ll give you a great way to have conversations in non-confrontational discussions. So look for the link to the marriage assessment at the website.
Jim: You know, our goal here at Focus on the Family is to be an ongoing resource for your marriage and family, whatever the questions you might have. That’s why we provide tools, advice, and encouragement like we hopefully have done today. And it’s having a great impact. A woman named Jordan shared this comment. “God is using your ministry to not only help me heal from my childhood, but also get help in changing the communication pattern with my husband. I believe God is using you to make our marriage so much stronger.” That’s wonderful news, I think. And, uh, here’s the thing. We can’t serve couples like Jordan and her husband without your support. Your ongoing gifts provide the fuel we need to save marriages, equip parents, rescue pre-born babies, and so much more. You are a part of it. You’re in the ministry when you support Focus on the Family. So let’s work together to equip and encourage more marriages like Jordan’s. A monthly pledge is a great way to do that, or a one-time gift, whatever you can do.
John: And once again, our phone number, 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY, or just go to focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And thanks for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back for more marriage insights from Jason and Tori Benham next time as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Day Two
Jason Benham: God transformed my heart.
Jim Daly: Oh, yeah.
Jason: And He can do that to anybody. There are probably some people listening right now that think, you know, “I can’t … I’ll never be that, I can’t do that for my husband or my wife or whatever.” Do it.
Tori Benham: Mm-hmm.
Jason: And when … You know, the essential element of love is sacrifice. And when you sacrifice, God, your Father, who is also your Father-in-Law, will bring the transformation that’s needed in your heart and your mind and your life, and He’ll transform your relationship.
John Fuller: Well, Jason and Tori Benham are back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and I’m John Fuller. We’re so glad you’ve joined us.
Jim: John, so often the fun kind of what seems to be lighthearted conversations end up being the most powerful, and I felt like that last time.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It was fun if you haven’t heard it, go back and listen to it through the, uh, app or the website, you can get that, uh, program. But it, it just had so many nuggets in it. They were crisp and right to the point and wrapped in humor.
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Which I think helps it to stick in our heads. At least for me, that helps.
John: Well, and we … I’ve been married 40 plus years. You’re …
Jim: You’re bragging (laughs).
John: … preaching 40 years and we can still drink in this wisdom because it’s applicable to anybody in marriage, right?
Jim: Oh, yeah. If anything, you know, I felt like I’m halfway there.
John: Oh.
Jim: (laughs) So anyway, but that’s the point. Uh, we want to help you have the best marriage you can have in Christ. I mean, that’s the goal. And so often, you know, some people will write to us and say, you know, “You make an idol out of family.” Well, we are a family ministry. We know that there are other ways to express your love to the Lord and live this life, but we’re speaking to “wanna marry” couples and married couples and all the seasons of that expression …
John: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … whether it’s death of a spouse, or divorce, or whatever may happen, and then all the parenting along the way. This is our mission. So we’re gonna talk about this in that context and, uh, our guests did such a great job kind of bringing the right things to think about in marriage.
John: Right, right. And while this is, as you described it, Jim, a, a lighter show, there are people with serious issues and just this quick reminder that we’ve got so many resources for you if you’re struggling, uh, just give us a call, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.
And, uh, Jason and Tori, uh, do a lot. They, they’re podcasters, and authors, and speakers and, um, they’ve written a terrific book called Marriage A to Z: 30 Days to Relational Transformation.
Jim: Jason and Tori, welcome back.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Thank you.
Jason: It’s great to be with you guys again.
Jim: It was fun last time. I don’t know if you enjoyed it.
Jason: I did.
Tori: (laughs)
Jim: You’re sharing all your raw stories of how you failed.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: (laughs)
Jason: I felt like that what we were sharing is really going to help you with Jean.
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: I think that’s where-
Jim: You know, that came through loud and clear didn’t it?
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: (laughs)
Jim: Yeah. I made lots of notes, which I hope you are as well.
Tori: (laughs)
Jim: But, uh, let’s go to the other easy letter of the alphabet. Q. So we’ve covered …
Jason: Oh, Q.
Jim: … uh, X and Z and Q. Uh-
Jason: I don’t even remember …
Tori: Yeah (laughs).
Jason: … what Q is.
Tori: I was like, “What is Q?”
Jim: Quilting.
Tori: Oh, don’t quit.
Jim: (laughs)
Tori: Right?
Jason: Quilting (laughs).
Tori: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs) I thought it was quilting. No, I’m kidding. I was going, “Jason …”
Jason: Quit quitting.
Jim: “… what a good husband you are.”
Tori: Quit quitting.
Jim: You’re into quilting.
Jason: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jim: With Tori that … But it’s quitting.
Tori: Quitting.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Quit quitting.
Jason: Quit quitting.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So …
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … is it obvious or what’s the substance around it?
Jason: It is very obvious, but I think that it says a lot about your commitment.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: You know, I mean, there does come a point where your emotions aren’t lining up with what you want ’em to. Maybe you said the wrong thing and your spouse and it is just … There’s nothing that you can do in that moment to make things better except refuse to quit.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: It’s, “I’m not going to say … I’m not going to use the D word.” You know, uh, “we’re just not going to quit. That’s it. I’m just going to continue moving forward and, yeah, we might need some space. We might need some of that, but I’m not quitting on you …”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: “… and I know you’re not quitting on me.” And once you get to that point, I’m telling you, just, that brings security in a relationship. It’s like-
Jim: Let me, let me back the truck up a little bit, though, because I think it’s important for people listening and viewing where they may be, the well is dry.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: That’s where they’re at.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: They can’t imagine that this well will ever fill with fresh water again.
Jason: Right.
Jim: Meaning the love in their relationship.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Speak to that person in that moment where, okay, they’re just realizing “I don’t know that we have enough together-“
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: “… to continue.” Now, as Christians, I know you guys are jumping out going, “What are you talking about?” I’m just trying to …
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … position this to say that couples both …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … in the church and outside the church …
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … will feel like the well is dry, and “I’ve come to the end of my rope.”
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: And, “There’s nothing there incentivizing me to stick with it.” How do we need to look at that differently in that moment?
Jason: I love that question because I see it all through scripture where one of the first things that they would do when they went into a new place was to dig a well.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: It’s like you have …
Jim: Right (laughs).
Jason: … have a well. And then when we see Jesus when He announced essentially that He is the Messiah, the Son of God, the first person, it’s to a woman that He meets at a well. And it’s like the well is so incredibly important. That’s why I harken back to an analogy we used earlier about be a fountain and not a drain, you have to tap into that well, you have to tap into the source. You have to give God the credit that He is powerful enough to transform anything. He brings dead things to life.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: He brings dead things to life. You need to claim that over yourself and you need to claim that over your spouse and over your relationship. And you bring God, the Author of life in, I mean, you go even look in the book of Ezekiel where God told him to prophesy the bones. These were dead bones.
Jim: Dry bones.
Jason: Yeah. They were completely dried, which means they’d been dead for a long time, and he prophesied to them and they woke up and they started rattling. And then He’s like, “Now prophesy to the breath.” It breathes life into those bones and then they arose a great army. You know, a great army, they’re on mission. An army has a mission. And I think oftentimes when you’re at the bottom of your rope and you feel like the well is dry, oftentimes it’s because you guys have lost your sense of mission-
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: …as a couple. And it’s like, “Why did God put us together in the first place?” ‘Cause it’s certainly not to sit here and argue back and forth. And you know what? The more you focus on trying to get along, the more you’re probably gonna start arguing. What you need to do is stop focusing on you, stop focusing on your relationship, and get out there and start focusing on helping other people, and you embrace each other’s strengths and even your weaknesses to be able to do that. Watch how the Lord comes in and rewards you. And now, all of a sudden, that well is not dry. It’s overflowing.
John: Mm-hmm.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Tori, in that regard, uh, you mentioned in this section of not quitting …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … uh, the marital vows and the importance of that.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: What do you wanna remind us about that?
Tori: I think that hopelessness is such a killer …
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tori: … in marriage. I think that’s something that, um, I recognize probably midway into our marriage. I remember there being a season where I was feeling just kind of low. Like, I think it was during the winter season and I just was feeling just not myself and some anxiety. And I was just going to the Lord and I was like, and I was feeling it in my relationship. But I was also feeling it in every area of my life, just kind of a down season.
And I remember asking the Lord, “I need you to speak to me. I … Like, what’s going on inside of me that I am struggling so much?” And the Lord gave me a dream. And in the dream, it was the most, like, hopeless situation. It was…It wouldn’t even make sense to you if I told you the dream, but it was very hopeless. And I woke up and I looked at the clock and I, and I still thought that this thing had happened. And then I realized it was a dream, and that it wasn’t real. And in that moment, this, like, overwhelming sense of hopelessness dropped ’cause it was just a dream, it was just a nightmare. And I felt hope come over my body and I just felt, oh, like this breath of fresh air.
And I felt like the Lord said, “This is what’s happening in your life. You are living in hopelessness. You are seeing everything through this lens of hopelessness, even in the most silly ways.” Like I … That day, I remember three different people asked me to do something, and I had to say no. And I’m a people pleaser and I had plans that day and I couldn’t help these three people that I love so much. But I had other plans and other commitments. So I had to say no to them, something that’s the worst thing for a people pleaser to have to say is “no.” And I felt that weight of hopelessness and the Lord said, “Do you see like this is how you’re operating, you’re operating in this weight of hopelessness, and it’s infiltrating into every area of your life …”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tori: “… including your marriage.”
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: And so I began to just really focus in on that, like “how am I living a life of hopelessness?” And some of those ways were the ways I was thinking about Jason, some of the ways were, were the ways I was even thinking about my own kids. Some of the conversations we’d have about our kids, they were hopeless. It was like, “They don’t, they don’t do this, and did you know he did this again?” And …
Jim: (laughs)
Tori: “… she talked …” You know, it’s like this-
Jim: Oh, yeah, I know (laughs).
Jason: (laughs)
Tori: It’s like this attitude. It’s this attitude like the doomsday attitude. And I remember the Lord just really speaking to my heart in that season that I am operating out of a spirit of hopelessness and I began to really turn that around. And I began to breathe life into my relationship. I began to look for good in everybody. I began to look for the good in Jason. I began to talk about the good I was seeing in my kids to Jason and the people around me. And I began to just kind of have that victory, a victory mindset. We talk about a victory mindset in our book, Beauty in Battle, of, you know, if we are one with Christ, we’re on the winning team.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tori: In the end, we win. So, let’s live like we win.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: Let’s not live like we’re victims of hopelessness. Let’s-
Jason: Can I put a bow on that real quick? Because trust is a choice. Hope is a feeling. Trust is the choice we make when we’re gonna trust God no matter what. Hope is the feeling that follows. I think a lot of people don’t have hope because they never truly made the choice to trust.
Jim: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jason: So make the choice …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … where you are in your relationship, wherever it is, make that choice that you’re gonna stick with it, that you’re gonna trust God as your Father and God as your Father-in-Law. And in time, that feeling’s gonna follow, the feeling of hope.
Jim: You know, in mentioning that quit in this part of the book, you also talk about perhaps it’s not gonna be divorce, it’s gonna be apathy.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: So I … You know, committed Christian couples, they may land there, but the marriage is nearly dead.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And that’s what you mean by the apathy.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: How do we avoid that, not to just be business partners and …
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … apathetic?
Jason: I think, um, the first we have to recognize that the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is indifference. And if you’re feeling indifferent toward your spouse, you need to go to your Father-in-Law (laughs). I’m gonna keep bringing it back.
Jim: Yeah, yeah.
Jason: You need to go to God and ask Him to reignite that passion in your heart. He did it for me. I think I actually told the story on one of our broadcasts that we did on our first book, Beauty in Battle, but I’ll just give you the cliff notes. But that happened to me five years into marriage where that love that was once, you know, on fire and just filled with fervency just began to dissipate. And I was focusing on building a business and doing all sorts of stuff, praying to the Lord about my business, and God was really blessing it.
Then one morning, I was up praying, and I felt like the Lord said to me, “Why don’t you pray as hard about your marriage as you do your business?”
John: Mm.
Jason: And it … I was convicted about that. So I started praying. You know, I’m like, “Okay, Lord, help me and Tori. You know, let’s go.” And I just felt a sense of deep conviction that I was not as fully in love with her as I once was, and I felt like the Lord was kind of showing me, “If I have the ability to get you to a 10 in marriage, on a scale of one to 10, why would you settle for a five or a six, you know? Why even settle for an eight if you can get to a 10?” And, uh, I felt like that was something that I needed to pray into.
And so every morning, I got down on my knees about 5:30 in the morning beside our bed, and I would lay my hands on Tori. Now, I said this in our last program, but I gotta reiterate, I made sure to leave it above the shoulders. I didn’t want her to think I was making early morning move or anything like that.
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: So I would place my hands on her and pray that God would reignite my passion for her.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: And He did it. He did it. I had a crazy dream, and I had a dream that she was cheating on me and that I almost literally killed a guy, and I woke up just before I punched the guy right in the face, you know? And, uh, and I looked over at her, and she’s snoozing over there. She has no idea that she’s in love with another man, you know?
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: But at that moment, I was like, “Oh my gosh.”
Jim: You were feeling it.
Jason: I woke her up …
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … and it was like, “Is somebody talking to you?” Like …
Tori: (laughs)
Jim: (laughs)
Jason: … I started …
Jim: Oh.
Jason: … like the feeling of jealousy was very real.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: I mean, you know, that’s the beauty of a dream is that your body doesn’t know if it really happened or not ’cause your brain hasn’t fully processed it.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: So I was feeling all those jealousy emotions. God really woke up my jealousy. And, uh, after about 20 minutes, I finally calmed down and I got down on my knees next to our bed just like was my … ‘Cause this was about 4:00 in the morning at this point, just like was my habit for the last two weeks, placed my hands on her. And no sooner did I do that, that the Lord reminded me of, of Revelation 2. Revelation 2. Remember the lo… you’ve lost your first love …
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … where He was talking to the church in Ephesus. And I felt like the Lord was like, “You stopped pursuing her. You’re now pursuing a career.”
John: Mm.
Jason: I’m like, “Well, what do I do?”, you know. It’s funny how before you get married, you know how to pursue your spouse, but then after you get married, you kind of forget how.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: But the, Revelation 2 had the answer. Remember He tells them, “Remember how far you’ve fallen, repent and redo the things you did at first. Remember, repent, redo.” And in that moment, I started to remember how much I loved Tori and all the times and then even that day and for the remaining few weeks, I started listening to our old songs that we used to listen to together, and it started kind of drumming up em- emotions in me. I repented for having a marriage that was hovering around a five or a six…
John: Mm.
Jason: … rather than a 10. And I started to redo the things we did at first that caused us to fall in love, writing notes, dancing together to slow country music in the kitchen.
Jim: (laughs)
Jason: Little Garth Brooks.
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: Maybe a little George Strait, right?
Jim: You got the soundtracks ready.
Tori: Uh-huh.
Jason: And my heart started to go in that direction. So I would say when it, when it feels dead, you need to remember, you need to repent, you need to redo the things that you did at first, and then you watch how God will transform you.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: No, that is really good and it’s a good awakening …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … when a husband can do that.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: And I’ll put it in that context. But Tori, let me speak to you again.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: The woman that’s going, “I’ve kind of done everything I can do.”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And he’s like, you know, “Is it time for the spiritual defibrillator?” …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … ’cause he’s not responsive, you know? And he’s the kind of guy that might say, “Well I love you. I told you I love you when we got married. Do I need to tell you again?”
Tori: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: You know, that attitude.
Tori: Yes, yeah.
Jim: And speak to that woman and with that woman …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … in our little dialogue here, if she’s in that spot, what can she do? She feels like it’s not working.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: “Help me.”
Tori: Well, I was that woman. I remember very much being that woman and like Jason was telling with the story is that he had pursued me so much in our dating years, but then we got married and he started this business and he really, all of his attention went to the business. All of his focus went to that business. And I remember being in the bathroom on the floor crying many, many nights.
Jim: Wow.
Tori: Just “God, please, like turn his heart back to me, help him to cherish me again.” And I remember the Lord getting me to a place where He wanted me to have my full dependency on Him. And I remember just asking the Lord like to do, like asking Him, begging Him, “Just turn Jason’s heart towards me. And then He began to show me how to turn my face towards Him …
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Tori: … towards God because I, my expectations and my desires were all wrapped (laughs) up in the way that Jason was treating me and the way that Jason was responding to me. And, um, so the Lord had to do something inside of me to where my full reliance was on Him, and that my needs were met through Him. And He began to do that, um, as I began to surrender that to Him. And I never stopped asking. I continued to ask God to change Jason’s heart towards me. But I surrendered a part of my heart that just longed so much for Jason to meet my needs, and I gave it to the Lord and let Him …
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: … to start meeting those needs. And then in time, the Lord started using Jason to meet those needs, but I knew who it was. I knew who the source was, and it wasn’t Jason. It was … I knew my source was God himself and that He was now using Jason to meet those needs. But it was … I think that most … I mean, most women that I talk to go through this.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: Like, this is something very common where there is a period in your relationship where it feels dead, it feels like it’s gone somewhere. And you remember, and all you have is this distant memory of what it once was. And it’s so hard in those moments, but I think that the Lord can use all of it. I don’t think …
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: … any of it is ever wasted.
John: Some great insight today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We’re talking with Tori and Jason Benham and, uh, we’re covering some of the content of their book, uh, which is small but so dense and so full of great insights. Marriage A to Z: 30 Days to Relational Transformation. Get a copy of the book when you call us or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
Jim: You know, the two common themes I’ve heard from you during the time we’ve been talking these last couple of days is really giving it to the Lord …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … turning toward the Lord.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: But then adjusting your mindset.
Tori: Mindset.
Jim: You’ve said that probably 10 times.
Tori: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jim: It’s so powerful.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: It seems like it would be so easy and so rational …
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … and smart …
Tori: Yes. …
Jim: … to do something like that. Why is it so hard?
Tori: I know.
Jim: It is like a gutter we’re in and we just can’t …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … emotionally get out of that. We feel like we’re saying the right things …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … but we’re not truly believing them deep down.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: So it … You know, you gotta make that effort.
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: You gotta make that connection. Turn to the Lord …
Tori: Yes.
Jim: … and then ask Him to engage in the situation.
Tori: Yes.
Jim: And begin to do the things that only you can control.
Tori: Yeah, exactly.
Jim: And one of them is not your husband.
Tori: Yeah.
Jason: (laughs)
Tori: Exactly.
Jim: I mean, you can’t control him and you …
Tori: Yeah.
Jim: … us husbands can’t control our wives.
Tori: Yeah. Our …
Jim: So I-
Tori: … our thoughts are…
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: … so, um … They’re tricky (laughs). Like, we talk about in Beauty in Battle the neuroscience behind our thoughts.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: Like, the thing, the way that we think, the thoughts that we think over and over again, they create neuro pathways in our minds, and it gets us on a path that we continue on. And so, if you have a thought and then you think it again the next day that groove, neuroscience actually shows this, there’s a groove in your, in your head that gets deeper and deeper. It gets more easily accessible the next time.
Jim: So when you say there’s a hole in your head, it’s true or-
Jason: (laughs)
Tori: It’s actually true. It’s actually true. Yes. But the really good news is that we can rewire our thoughts.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: We can rewire our brain. And it takes effort, it takes recognizing at the, what foot of the path that we’re at, right? It takes a lot of work, but it is a hundred percent doable. And, um, the … You know, I … We talk about it in the book. For me, like I had this, these thoughts of Jason that were not moving me towards him. They were actually moving me away from him. They were making me mad at him. I was … You know, thoughts that I was thinking of him were not leading me to a path that I wanted to be on. It … Like, it ultimately was not leading to connection, it was ultimately leading to division in our marriage.
And so, when I began to recognize, “Wait a minute, these thoughts that I’m thinking, they’re not leading me where I wanna go. So, I better start rethinking (laughs) …”
Jim: Again.
Tori: “… some of these things.”
Jim: Sounds simple, but hard to do.
Tori: So hard to do.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: And so when I would get to the foot of that path, and I would recognize, “I know what’s going on here, I am at the foot of this path and I … It’s so easy to go down this path, but I know where it’s going, and that’s not where I wanna go.”
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: “So I’m not gonna think that thought. I’m gonna think …”
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: “… about things that are good and holy.” You know, what’s that verse, think about things that are good and true and lovely and a good report, you know? And so you have to transform your thinking. You have to change your mind. You have to change your mindset if you, but you really have to start by knowing where you wanna go.
Jim: Right.
Tori: Right? Like, for me, it was like it’s so easy to get on this path, but now I know where it’s going, so I’m not gonna do …
Jim: Right.
Tori: … I’m not gonna go there.
Jim: So true. Let’s end with P, which you, uh, say is practice presence.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Tori: You have a powerful story about your mom …
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: … who died of lung cancer in 2017, I believe.
Jason: Yup.
Jim: How, how did that intersect with presence?
Jason: My mom was the most fully present woman that you would ever meet and, you know, uh, what we tell couples is, “The greatest present that you can give to your spouse is your presence.” And it works with family, too.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: And my mom, she came down with a pulmonary fibrosis, which is a scarring of the lungs.
Jim: Very difficult.
Jason: And in her final days, you know, they send in the palliative nurses and all of that and basically it’s, they’re just trying to give her comfort measures so that she can pass peacefully ’cause there was nothing that we could do, and she was only 68 years old. And, uh, they came in and offered her morphine. And at this point, she was really having a hard time breathing. Her blood … Her oxygen levels were so low. It was like she was walking on a treadmill trying to breathe through a straw, and we were watching her in pain.
She was a nurse, though, and so she knew that once you start administering the morphine, then you can fall asleep and just, you know, pass away that way, and we’re all like, “Please do that.” Like (laughs) …
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … “That’s what we want you to do.” And she’s like, “No, I wanna be present. I wanna be there …”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … uh, with all of us. And, you know, we had her for another four days.
Jim: Wow.
Jason: And we would … All of us would gather around and sing, worship and then she would open her eyes every now and then, you’d see a little tear come out of her. Like, she was experienced, she was there with us. And then on the last night, it was my … My little daughter, Allie, who was our oldest daughter and she stayed with my mom that night, and I was up there with her all night, and I slept on the floor, and Allie was sleeping right next to her. And my mom was having a hard time breathing and one of the little bells went off. So Allie got up and my mom had a mask on, and Allie moved her mask just a little bit and my mom said, “Coke.”
Tori: (laughs)
Jason: (laughs) She just wanted a Coke.
Jim: A sip of Coke.
Jason: And, you know, she’s in her dying days, she wants Coke, let’s get her Coke. So Allie got her some Coke, this is like 2:00 in the morning, and I’m laying on the ground and I’m watching this. And Allie gets her a Coke. And she’s drinking it out of a straw. And then Allie pulls it back, and then my mom reaches up and pulls her, pulls her mask back and says in broken English, you know, “I love you, Allie.”
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: And she put her mask right back on, and those were her last words.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: And then she died that morning.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: But not until my little daughter got a chance to be in the present, presence of her grandmother.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: And that was the greatest gift. And so when we were writing this book, I was like, “Man, my mom, she just was somebody who was fully present.”
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: And, you know, now, I mean, when you got your phones and all this kind of stuff, I mean, it’s really hard to be fully present.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: But I’d never forget, you know, eight years ago when my mom was fully present and now my daughter Allie has a story …
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jason: … to tell, and I’m telling people this story. And I wish I could tell it without crying. It’s just not gonna happen.
Jim: Better that you do.
Jason: I know it makes you feel like you want to hug me right now, Jim …
Tori: (laughs)
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … so we can hold each other after this broadcast.
Jim: But it does, it does illustrate the connection.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: I mean, what a beautiful gift for your daughter.
Jason: That’s right.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: To hear that from her grandmother.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: That does make me cry.
Tori: Yeah. And what she taught us was just that you have to fight for presence.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: Like what Nana taught us is, was the fight for it. You know, for four days, she didn’t need to fight. She could have just … She could have taken the morphine and gone to sleep and been peaceful and not suffered at all, but she actually wrote on a dry erase board, “Pray that the Lord will give me increased strength to fight.”
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah.
Tori: ‘Cause that was when she lost her voice, and she couldn’t even say, but she just, she fought for the presence of her family. And those moments were precious to her. They meant something to her, and she suffered through some of the pain so that we could have her presence and that she could have ours.
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: And you know, that’s exactly what Jesus did on the Cross when He was offered that little mix on the sponge, and He refused to drink it. It was just a little something that could have numbed the pain, and Jesus was like, “I’m going to stay fully present.”
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Jason: And I got a chance to see that in real life. And …
Jim: Yeah.
Jason: … it really makes me thankful that our Savior did that, and He stayed fully present even in the midst of His pain. And you know what, in marriage, yes, sometimes it is painful to give your spouse full presence, you know, but when you do that, it’s the greatest gift you can ever give to your spouse. And when they open it, they’re going to get a real treasure.
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Yeah. I mean, you’ve said it so beautifully and what a story to land on …
Jason: Yeah (laughs).
Tori: Mm-hmm.
Jim: … that grabs everybody’s emotions.
Jason: Yeah.
Jim: And, you know, whether it’s, uh, your marriage, your parenting, connections with people, I mean, this is, this is really good, this resource, and you can apply it in all kinds of ways. But ideally, certainly in your marriage, Marriage A to Z: 30 Days to Relational Transformation, probably one of the easiest ways to start thinking differently and getting the benefit of thinking differently by loving each other and connecting with each other. Thank you both for being with us.
Jason: Yeah.
Tori: Thank you.
Jason: Thanks for having us.
Jim: And for the listeners, we certainly recommend to get a copy of the Benham’s book. Make a monthly pledge of any amount and we’ll put this resource into your hands. What we really need right now are more friends of the family who are willing to become monthly partners with us in ministry. You can do ministry through your giving to Focus on the Family today.
John: And when you do so, you’re joining a team of people who are committed to helping marriages and families to thrive.
Now we heard from a man named David who wrote us and told us this. “We’re happy to continue supporting Focus on the Family. You are right on in providing practical Christian advice for people living in our world today. God’s perspective on economics, marriage, raising a family, and dealing with problems in the world around us is desperately needed.”
Jim: Well, thank you, David, for that endorsement and for your generosity. I hope David’s example inspires you to join our support team as well. And here’s what your donations are paying for. A pledge of just $15 a month makes it possible for us to put practical biblical resources like books, videos, and more into the hands of six families every year. That’s a powerful investment. And I invite you to prayerfully consider what the Lord is calling you to do to help families today.
John: And, of course, uh, while we appreciate monthly pledges, uh, it may be that you’re not able to afford one right now and we understand a generous one-time gift also helps and, uh, we’ll also say thank you for that gift by sending the Benham’s book, Marriage A to Z. Donate today when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.
And thanks for joining us for today’s episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.
