Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Day One:

Preview:

Ashley Willis: I mean, there’s many, many things that we wanna leave behind as a legacy. But I think the biggest one is that marriage is awesome. Like, I, you know, even in the hard moments, marriage is wonderful. It is a gift, and that there is hope even in the hard times. Um, that’s something that we always wanna point to. But I think for every couple, just coming back to that reason that God brought them together, because I think in hard seasons, especially those broken seasons we talked about, we lose sight of that because we’re just in critical condition, we’re just trying to survive, right? But in order to thrive, we have to think about that bigger picture.

End Of Preview

John Fuller: That’s Ashley Willis, and she, and her husband, Dave, join us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we’re glad you’re here. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, here’s a book title that should grab everybody, Do Marriage Better. (laughs). Who doesn’t want that book?

John: Mm.

Jim: And, uh, I have, uh, prepped for the show. There is so much good stuff in here. Here’s the best part, the subtitle, 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. And our guests are talking about little things you can do that make big differences. And I think that’s been my observation about marriage. When Jean, and I hit a tough spot, it’s usually because one of us has said something a little off that sets the other one askew.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Why did you say it like that? That kind of hurt my feelings, whatever it might be. And if we could be a little more thoughtful about how we communicate, and in other areas of our lives, how we interact with each other, man, you could have a marriage that is the best. And that’s what we’re aiming for today with our guests.

John: Yeah. Dave, and Ashley Willis are conference speakers, and relationship coaches, and podcast hosts. Uh, they’ve been in full-time marriage ministry for quite a long time now. They’ve got four boys, and they’ve written a terrific book called, as you said, Jim, Do Marriage Better: 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. And, uh, we wanna encourage you to go to FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast to get the book, and learn more about the Willis’ ministry.

Jim: Dave, and Ashley, welcome back. Good to have you here.

Ashley: So, glad to be here.

Dave Willis: Always.

Ashley: Always.

Dave: Always a pleasure to see you guys.

Jim: Yeah, it’s fun. It’s good to see you guys. Listen, I was serious about that i-i-in terms of the seven simple shifts. That’s what you guys are talking about, these simple shifts.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: It can sound too easy. So, let’s cover those seven just quickly, and then we’ll begin to dive into them, and hopefully couples can walk away from this, and go, “Oh, man, we can make a 20% improvement in our marital relationship.” That would be good.

Dave: Absolutely, that would be good. And that, that was really the heart of the book. I think sometimes we over-complicate things. I over-complicate things.

Jim: (laughs) You think?

Dave: And, you know, you think, “Oh, I’ve gotta lose 100 pounds.” It’s like, well, maybe you could start just by losing a couple.

Jim: You would go right to that, wouldn’t you? (laughs) That wasn’t the idea I had in mind, but- (laughs).

Dave: Right. You know, baby steps.

Jim: Baby steps.

Dave: Baby steps.

Jim: First 100 pounds.

Dave: The first… Yeah. (laughs) So, and in, in marriage, it’s the same way. We, we think, oh, I’ve gotta, you know, if, if marriage was a weight loss goal, I’ve gotta lose 100 pounds in, in our marriage to get where we want it to be. It’s like, w- maybe just take smaller bite-sized steps-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: …to make simple shifts that over time really will lead to those big payoffs. And the, the areas, the shifts that we’re talking about are just those main areas that affect every marriage. Areas like money, communication, sex, parenting, legacy. Like, these are things that all couples talk about, and deal with. And we’ve just put together some tools based on working with couples for many years and, and of course studying what the Bible has to say about marriage, and realizing God doesn’t want it to be complicated. It doesn’t mean that marriage is always easy.

Jim: Right.

Dave: But it’s not as complicated as we make it. And if we’ll do these little shifts, it can make a big difference.

Jim: Okay. So, we hit some of those themes as people were listening. It went by fast, but I’m sure they caught it. But Ashley, when we start looking at it, communication is really tricky.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: For all kinds of reasons. People, we tend to wanna not recognize that we do have some limitations, gender issues.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And what I mean by that is men think differently than women.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: I mean, the culture in some areas are trying to say, “No, there’s no difference.” There is a difference. I mean, researchers show this when they give kids toys, right? The boys turn them into bombs, and explosions- (laughs)… And the girls tend to turn it into a tea party.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, so there’s just basic things that we’re already set for at two, three, four years old. And guess what? We pull these things into our teen years, our 20-somethings, and certainly our marriages.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: So, in looking at that, what’s one first step a couple can take to start talking in a way that really builds each other up? Man, we, Jean, and I work at this, and yet there are days I just get the F grade. (laughs) So, how do we do that more consistently?

Ashley: Man, that, that’s such a good question. And, and we can relate, too. We’ve been married almost 25 years, and it’s been a journey. But I will say early in our marriage, I really made the mistake that a lot of couples make in assuming that Dave processes things the way I do, and that he should communicate the way I do. And, and really, we constantly found ourselves bumping heads. And just to give an example, I tend to process things as I’m talking. Like, I’m talking, and I’m processing, and I’m expecting him to do the same. And so if I had an issue, and I would bring it to Dave, I would, you know, start talking about it, and just kind of, just going through it, just drilling him with all these different things that I wanted to address. And he would look at me kind of stunned, and then I would get to the end of my tirade, and he would just stare at me, and he wouldn’t say anything, and I took it as, “Oh, you don’t care. You don’t have anything to say. You don’t care.” And so then I would be like, “You just don’t care.” And then I would kind of go into the other room. And then he would come back later after maybe like 30 minutes, and he’s like, “Ashley, I do care. I just needed time to think.” Like, I just need to-

Jim: Yeah, it’s overwhelming.

Ashley: …take this in.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: It’s overwhelming. (laughs) I care more than you could imagine.

Dave: I gotta process this.

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: But she’d watch so many Hallmark movies-

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: …where-

Ashley: Guilty.

Dave: …where the guy has a script, and knows what to say every time.

Jim: Isn’t that the truth.

Dave: The good looking lumberjack always knows what to say.

Ashley: He does.

Dave: And he’s so sensitive, and kind, and I didn’t have a script. I’m like, “I don’t know what to do here.”

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And I’m also very literal too. Like one of the things we had to learn in, in marriage is she would say things to try to soften a, a request, but really I would take it literally, like she would say things like, “Hey, Dave, when you get a minute, could you bring me this?” And I thought that meant at any point in the day-

Jim: When you get a minute-

Ashley: When you get a minute. (laughs)

Dave: Young husbands listen to me. If your wife says when you get a minute, it means now. (laughs)

Ashley: It means do it now.

Dave: It means right now. No one told me this. Uh, she would say like, “We need to do some… We, we need to mow the yard.” And I would think, “How are we gonna mow the yard? It’s not a two-person job. We have a push mower.” (laughs) But I would wait till she was ready to do it with me and, and she would say, “Why isn’t the yard mowed?” I’d say, “Well, I thought we wanted to do it together.” And she said, “Why do we do it together?” I said, “Exactly.” (laughs) And so when, when your wife says we need to do something, guys, it probably means a gentle way of her saying, “Hey, you need to do this.” And-

Ashley: But can you please do this?

Dave: Can you please? And she was being so polite, and kind, and softening the language, but I was just a neanderthal that took everything completely literally and, uh, and it took us a while just to connect on simple things like that, which we laugh about now, of course. And then as marriage goes on, and communication gets more nuanced and, and the issues you face might get a little more complex.

Jim: So, a couple right now is going-

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: …okay, so, uh, that’s where we’re at.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: What is that first step? What is something they can do to either say it differently?

Ashley: Yes. No, that, that’s true because I know they’re like, “Well, that’s, you know, lawnmower issues are not our thing.”

Dave: Right.

Ashley: I think where we need to start-

Dave: We’re smarter than Dave.

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: So, can you help us with something that’s actually practical? (laughs)

Ashley: Really, we need, we need to come at each other with curiosity, and compassion. And if we can start there, and not come at, at each other with criticism, because I found myself in those hard years of communication, always really having this critical eye, when I shifted to having curiosity, like, “Well, why is he not speaking?” Is it that maybe I’ve just landed, you know, these things on him that he needs to think about, or maybe I’m not being clear about this because clarity is kindness, like maybe I just need to be a little more clear. When we have curiosity, it’s really hard to be angry about that because we’re curious instead of critical. And so I think even just that simple way of having curiosity, it changes how we talk to each other. Have a curious tone too. It’s not just the words you, you say, it’s how you say them. And when you’re curious in your tone, it’s a little softer because you’re trying to inquire about what’s going on instead of assuming what’s going on.

Jim: And these are all great concepts. The, uh, let me ask you this, this, you relate to the talk you hear in your head.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Again, we learn things, family of origin, all those things that we grow up with, if you had a negative parent, for example, when you hear your spouse say something like, “Oh, the chicken seems a little cool”, or whatever it might be.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: And I know a lot of guys are doing the cooking now, so I don’t mean it in a, in that way. It’s just whoever says something as an observation can be taken as a, a demeaning comment, like you’re attacking me, and my worth-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: …that I’m not good enough. I didn’t do it well enough. Speak to that idea of the words we hear in our head, and how do we arrest those so that we don’t let that fly off the handle inside.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Ashley’s so good at this. In addition to her long resume already, she’s also a very gifted biblical counselor and, and works with people, and helps them with these kind of issues all the time because the voices in our head, that inner monologue, that inner soundtrack, it impacts everything that we do. And a lot of times when your spouse responds in a way where they’re hurt by something you said, or did, it goes much deeper than what you said, or did. It goes to a place of woundedness that they have probably from long before you even came into the picture.

Ashley: Right.

Dave: Where they’re carrying this deep insecurity around a certain area that came from growing up in a home maybe where, like you said, there, there was potentially a negative parent or, or they felt like as a kid, they couldn’t do anything right and, and they’re carrying that into the marriage, and you could say something, not meaning anything by it, but it touches a wound from way back then. And so when your spouse responds in a way where it doesn’t seem like it fits, right? You know, you, you said something that wasn’t meant to cause offense, and they seem to get offended, uh, or emotional, instead of getting defensive yourself, like she said earlier, get curious, like lean into that-

Jim: Uh-huh.

Dave: …say, “Let’s talk about that. I didn’t mean to hurt you, but let’s talk about the nerve that that struck, because I wanna help. I wanna help not do that again on my part, but I also wanna help you, uh, process, and work through whatever the root cause of that wound might be.”

Jim: It sounds like diffusing.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: You know, that’s the, the word picture I think of, of the bomb, the emotional bomb being diffused with great craft.

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Cut the right wire.

Jim: Cut the right wire.

John: (laughs)

Ashley: Right, right.

Jim: I don’t know which one to cut. (laughs) But, uh, Ashley, let me ask you this. You, you mentioned tone a while ago.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Uh, I love the story you had in the book about your dog.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: (Laughing) And Jean, and I were laughing when we read that because we could see your boys describe for the audience what happened because it, it, this is something I’m gonna try.

Ashley: Oh, my gosh. Well, we have our little dog Chichi. She’s a Chiweenie supposedly. That’s what the pound told us.

Jim: A Chiweenie.

Ashley: Yeah, supposedly that’s a Chihuahua, and a Dachshund mix.

Jim: Okay.

Ashley: Okay. So, they call that a Chiweenie. And our boys, you know, we say sweet things to Chichi all day, but they were like wanting to see if they said mean things in a nice tone if she would have the same response, and she did. So, they’d be like, “Chi Chi, you’re the ugliest dog there is on earth.” (laughs).

Jim: Chichi would wiggle over?

Ashley: “We don’t like you chichi,” and she’s just smiling, and wagging her tail, and it’s like she doesn’t care at all what they’re saying. And they’re like, “See, it’s the tone, mom. It’s the tone.”

Dave: Well, then they’d say nice things in a mean tone.

Ashley: Yes. Oh, that’s right. Yes.

Dave: Like “You’re the best dog ever, and we love you so much”, and she’d get-

Ashley: She’d be like “Ooh.”

Dave: She’d get scared.

John: Oh, my goodness.

Jim: So, yeah, tone made the difference not the words.

Dave: Exactly.

Ashley: Exactly.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Exactly. And so we, you know, as human beings, we need to pay attention to our tone because it matters. And I think sometimes we can find ourselves in what I like to refer to as a sandpaper season where maybe our spouse didn’t do a thing, but we are in a rough season where we already feel wounded, we feel raw. And so they could just say something that isn’t even meant to be hurtful, but we take it that way because maybe the tone hit us wrong.

Jim: How do we, how do we defuse that? Because I’ve had that experience where I’m just saying-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: …something almost like a, a journalist would say.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: You know, four people went off the road yesterday, and struck a poll, and everyone survived, and everyone’s good. “Why would you say that to me like that?” (laughs) And I’m going, “What did I just say?” (laughs) So, how do we honor our spouse to give us that feedback of how that comment may have wounded them? And then in the inside, our head talk is, what in the world is she talking about? All I did was state a fact.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: I didn’t have a tone with it at all. Where’s the referee call in that? How do I back off of that, and say, “Okay, obviously it didn’t work for her.”

Ashley: Right.

Jim: What do I need to do to say it differently? What do you coach couples with in that regard?

Ashley: I love that you said you gotta get ahold of your own self-talk because I do think if we’re just stewing all day, and having assumptions like, well, she’s just emotional, and she just doesn’t get me-

Jim: Right.

Ashley: …and like what’s wrong her? Like if we’re just stewing on that all day, when we have that next conversation with our spouse, we’re gonna come off really negatively, too, because we’ve assumed the worst of them. And so first of all, we’ve gotta reign in those thoughts, and assume the best, and then ask questions, ask questions if you don’t know, if you’re like really like, “What’s going on there?” I would go up to your spouse, and say, “Listen, I can tell that really struck a nerve in you. I want you to know I’m for you, and not against you.”

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: “What went on there? Like what did I say, or do, or maybe it wasn’t even me. What’s going on here?”

Jim: You know, in that regard, that’s a great point. We make the assumption that you did it on purpose. (laughs) And I would say 95% of the time, it’s probably not accurate.

Ashley: Exactly.

Jim: Both directions, right?

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We do assume that you did that. You threw that dart at me, and it hit its mark.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: And you’re going, “What dark? What mark?” (laughs).

Ashley: Yeah.

Jim: And, you know, there might be times where you are throwing a dig, and you gotta be careful with that, obviously. There’s healthier ways to do that. But again, that’s how with that communication, we gotta be mindful, and make, maybe make the assumption, and this is a good thing. I’m having a lot of aha’s lately. (laughs) And I’ve been married almost 40 years, that’s trouble.

Ashley: That’s amazing.

Jim: But just that idea of before I react emotionally like that, make the assumption that Jean didn’t know what she was saying, or vice versa.

Ashley: Exactly.

Jim: But how do you train yourself to do that to say, “Okay, I’m not gonna assume the worst first.”

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: In the love chapter, 1st Corinthians 13, when Apostle Paul gives us this, this great list of what love is, the very first adjective he uses is patient. Love is patient.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Love is patient, love is kind, it goes on from there. And I think that’s the part, he, he put that first, the Bible list at first, because that’s the part we struggle with the most, is the patience of like really taking a breath and, and leaning in and, and staying curious. You know, Ephesians 4:32 talks about be kind, and compassionate to one another, and then it uses a word that I love, tenderhearted forgiving one another. And I think that tenderness in marriage is usually what we need to lean into when there’s a pattern of offense of like, how can I, in my tone, in my words, in my pursuit of my spouse, and my thoughtfulness, just be tender with them, you know, not rough with them, but just tender with them. And if we’ll take that posture, it will change the way we talk. And, and all of us, we know how to do this because you look at somebody that might be harsh with their spouse, and they think, “Well, I’m just not a, a flowery person with my words.” And then they’ll get their dog, and they’ll be like, “I love you so much. You’re so precious,” you know?

Jim: (laughs) Oops.

Dave: And so they clearly know how to be tender, right?

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: We all do, but we just need to direct that where it matters the most, and be tender, and patient with your spouse.

Ashley: And I wanna say this too, just practically, take at least five seconds, just count to five, take a deep breath before you say anything. And if at that five, at number five, if you’re still just rearing to go, ready to say something mean, count to five again.

Jim: Oh.

Ashley: And if you can’t get yourself regulated, dismiss yourself, and say, “I love you. I’m gonna go take a minute. I’ll be right back. I promise I won’t leave you hanging. I just need a minute.”

Jim: Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: Because I think so many times we just don’t advocate. We don’t take the time because we’re just, you know, we let the emotions take over, but we need to take the time because our relationship is worth it.

John: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guests today are Dave and Ashley Willis, and we’re talking about their book, Do Marriage Better: 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. We have that at our website. And I’m also gonna mention our free marriage assessment. It was developed here by our marriage team. Over a million people have taken it, and it is a terrific tool. Uh, you just spend five, or 10 minutes, uh, with that assessment, and you’ll have hours of talking points. It’s free, it’s on our website, and it’s gonna show you how you’re doing well in your relationship, and the areas you might improve. Look for that assessment, and the book by Dave and Ashley at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.

Jim: Let’s move to prioritizing your marriage. This is one, especially for young couples that can be difficult in the busy season, uh, but you have this concept of concentrating on your marriage. Why do we say a marriage-centric, uh, family is, is critical over a child-centric family? How do we do that?

Dave: Well, the, the simplest reason why we do that is because that’s the way God designed it.

Jim: That is true.

Dave: You know, when you look, look at scripture, you look at how he orchestrated the family from the very first couple on, it, that’s His design that the most important human relationship we have on earth if we’re married is with our spouse. It’s God first, then our spouse, then our kids. And when we get that out of balance, when we put our kids first, it creates codependency, it creates, uh, it creates a lot of difficult things. It’s one of the reasons why the divorce rate is spiking among empty-nesters.

Jim: Right.

Dave: And people are, are good at co-parenting, and paying bills, and running kids to practice, and being focused on the kids. And once the kids are out of the house, they look at each other, and realize they’re married to a stranger. And sadly, there’s an epidemic of divorce-

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Dave: …among people who’ve been married, you know, 20, 30 plus years. And we’re trying to just help people. We’re not saying anything really new, or novel in this. We’re just trying to point people back to the timeless truth of God’s design for putting marriage first. And when you give your kids the gift of seeing a healthy marriage, it is a gift to them because a lot of, uh, young people are scared to get married right now. They’re, they’re cohabitating, they’re dating around, they’re scared of marriage. The reason why is they grew up in a household where they never saw a good example of it. And if we can give our kids a good example, that’s one of the greatest gifts we can give them is they go out on their own, and start their own family.

Jim: That’s really good. Now, how did Oreos teach this to your family? (laughs) This is what I want to know. I mean, I love a good Oreo.

Dave: Cookies and sweets find their way into all of our family stories. (laughs) And, um, we just have a lot of…

Ashley: We…

Dave: …a lot of sweet tooth people in the house.

Jim: Okay.

Dave: But there was an Oreo story.

Ashley: There is, oh my gosh, it ma- it grosses me out every time I tell it. But it’s also kind of a funny story. So, I remember, this is when we were in the thick of, of raising four boys at the time. Our youngest was probably, I don’t know, one, and a half, and our oldest was maybe 10. And there was this quiet in the house all of a sudden. And that rarely happened at that time.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: When it… And we were enjoying it for a moment. I think I was folding laundry, you were doing some other kind of chore, and we, it was just a quiet moment. And I realized, I don’t know where Chatham is, our littlest one. And I’m like, “Oh my gosh, where’s Chatham?” And Dave’s like, “I thought you knew where Chatham was.” And all of a sudden, we look at the kitchen, and the, at the time, we had a great room, but our kitchen light was off, but there was one little light coming from the half bath that was right off the kitchen. And I’m, I’m like, he was kind of in the midst of potty training, and I’m like, “Did he actually go to the potty?” And so we go over to the bathroom and, and at first I’m relieved. I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, there’s Chatham. We found him, he’s safe, and sound”, but then I realized there’s this dark ring around his mouth, and I’m like, “What is that? That’s weird.” And then I look, and see his soggy hand with a soggy Oreo, and he is smiling ear to ear, dipping an Oreo in the toilet- (laughs) and eating it. (laughs) And eating it.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: And he was so proud of himself.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: Stay on the road. Don’t veer off the road for the listeners. Okay.

Ashley: Oh, my gosh.

Jim: Wow.

Ashley: I know. And so we like-

Dave: This is why we don’t get invited to speak at parenting conferences.

Ashley: I know. I know.

Dave: …marriage, lots of marriage stuff, but they, they hear these stories, and they’re like, “We’re good on the parenting though.”

Ashley: We’re good, Dave and Ashley. No, but we immediately swiped him up, and cleaned, and were gagging. Everybody’s gagging, but it was, we, we laugh about it now, but it was crazy. It’s just-

Jim: And help me with why that reinforces marriage? (laughs)

Dave: You know, Jim, I’m not sure. (laughs) Um, I think… (laughs)

Ashley: I think honestly, it’s, first of all, having a sense of humor, right?

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: But also being a team. I think just being a team, and handling things and, you know, just getting in there, and tackling things together-

Dave: Well-

Ashley: …because parenting is hard.

Dave: And why we talked about in the book with that story too is when you take your eyes off of something that’s important for too long, uh, it, it’s gonna veer someplace it shouldn’t.

Ashley: Exactly.

Dave: And that happened with our kid, but we see that over, and over happen with people’s marriages where you, you put it on autopilot, you don’t really take time to, to check in, and say, “Where are we? How are we?” You’re just assuming everything’s fine because there’s not this big crisis. There’s not this big explosion, just like we did in that moment where things seemed fine because they were quiet, but quiet doesn’t always mean healthy. (laughs).

Ashley: Mm-mm.

Dave: And you need to be proactive, and lean in, and say like, “How are we doing? Like how, you know, what, what can I do to be a better spouse to you? And are we prioritizing each other enough? Do we need to make sure we have that date night on the book consistently?” Um, and just checking in because left on autopilot, every marriage will crash eventually.

Jim: No, that’s good.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: I will never think of Oreos quite the same way, but-

Ashley: I know. I know.

John: Yeah. Yeah. And, and even in that circumstance, I mean, there’s an, an illustration there, I’m sure of different parenting styles, and how you handle these things because Dena, and I would always approach some of the problems quite differently.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

John: But you, you had the wisdom to go seek out help from somebody because of those differences.

Ashley: Yes.

John: And I thought that was really an important part of, of what you shared because there’s an accountability, there’s a willingness to grow. Um, who did you seek out, and what did you learn?

Ashley: Well, I will just, I’m telling you, this is Dave. Dave had a lot of wisdom because we found ourselves just, you know, really getting along in most areas of marriage, but when it came to parenting, there was a growing resentment, and a tension that we could feel. We weren’t like fighting, and calling names, or anything like that, but just you could feel the tension, you could cut it with a knife. And we just found that we just could not get on the same page with parenting. I was much more black, and white, and Dave was just nicer. And I was like, “Between the two of us is like a balanced parent, we’ve got to figure this out.” But Dave one day came to me, and he said, “Ashley”, he’s like, “Listen, we have, like, I know that we have all these areas of marriage where there’s not tension.” And he said, “But this tension, I just feel like it’s getting, it’s growing. And I, I feel that you resent me. And I hate that.” But he goes, “But I feel like I don’t even know what it is.” And he’s like, and, and, you know, in the conversations we’ve had, I can tell that you feel a bit like you don’t know what it is either. You can’t put your finger on it. He goes, “I have this idea. Let’s pray about, you know, asking God to, to bring to mind a couple that we know that has a, a thriving family, not a perfect family because those don’t exist, but a family that we admire that’s maybe a little bit, like, 10 years ahead of us, and let’s have them over for dinner, and talk to them, and just learn from them.” And I was like, “Okay, I’ll do it.” So, we prayed, we, I mean, God brought to mind the same couple, the same family. And then I started saying, “Oh no, they’re so busy. You know what? We shouldn’t ask them, like, you know what, this is probably not a good idea.” And he looked at me, and grabbed my hand, and he said, “Ashley, you can’t say no for people. The worst that can happen is they can’t do it, and we’ll pray about it, and we’ll, we’ll think of another couple God will bring to mind another couple, and we’ll go from there, but we’re not, we need to do this.” And so we approached the couple at church, and they were more than willing. I mean, they were so honored that we would even ask, and they were like, “We would love to teach you what we know.” So, we had them over for pizza, and spent like two, or three hours just talking through all these issues we’d been facing with parenting. And they gave us new thoughts, and new practical skills to consider, and to use that we had never thought about nor would we have thought about without talking to them. And we went back to them over the years, but it was a real game changer for us.

Dave: Yeah. Just being willing to ask for help, and seek help is sometimes one of the wisest things you can do for any part of life.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: But certainly for marriage, and in marriage, for whatever reason, we just clam up, and we’re like, “No, I don’t want people to know our business. I don’t want that.” And you can’t think that way. You have to think there are people out there who’ve been where we are, who have walked through this, and can teach us what they know, and let’s lean into that. And I’m so thankful that we did and, and that couple, you know, became great friends, and great mentors, and it, it wasn’t like formal. It wasn’t, we were, we weren’t meeting every week, it wasn’t like that, but they were there in our corner from then on, and that made a huge difference.

Jim: Yeah. In that context, uh, you do point out it’s important to create a healthy family culture in this area of marriage and-

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: …it reinforces that, but a place where children even feel like they can be heard, speak to that idea, and maybe you have some traditions in your family that helped you build that culture, but speak to all of that.

Dave: Yeah. I think leaning in with curiosity, the same you do with your spouse-

Ashley: Yeah.

Dave: …instead of leaning with criticism. I think as parents, sometimes we think our go-to needs to be criticized, like, “That’s wrong, I gotta correct it, that’s what parenting is.” But really, we should come alongside as teachers, mentors, that’s what parenting is as well, and say, “Okay, tell me why you did that.” And a lot of times, you’ll hear them answering their own question of why it was wrong that they did what they did, and you can just kind of help lovingly point it out. And if kids know that you’re there with them, and for them, and you want them to win, then they’re much more willing to share their struggles, and their losses with you.

Ashley: Exactly, because we put a high value on honesty in our family.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: And from a very young age, we always told them, “You’re gonna get in less trouble if you’re honest first before us finding out than if we find out.” Because there’s gonna be consequences regardless, but they’re gonna be less if you can just come forth, and be honest. And I think when you put those kind of things in place as a family, it breeds more honesty, right? And so over the years as our kids, you know, got to be young adults, they still come to us, and sometimes, you know, when they’re asking certain questions, my eyes, I have to watch like my face because I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, where is this question coming from?”

Dave: Don’t freak out. Don’t freak out.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: Dave will grab my hand, and he’s like, “This is what we wanted. This is what we wanted.”

Jim: (laughs) Well, this has been a great start. These are great tips. And, uh, what a concept. Do Marriage Better: 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. And we’ve just scratched the surface. We can never cover it adequately, so you need to get a copy of the book. And you could do that just by giving us a call, or connecting with us online. Do Marriage Better. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Whatever you can do, five, 10 dollars is great. We’ll send you the book, we’ll do ministry together, and do more. And let me also reiterate, uh, something you said, John, we have a marriage assessment. It takes about 10 minutes to do. You know, it’ll show your strengths, and then point out some areas you could probably improve in. (laughs) Is that, that’s coach talk, right?

Ashley: That is.

Jim: But it is, it’s quite good. And I think we’ve had like 1.2, 1.3 million people do that, uh, survey. So, join that. It’s free. You can, uh, get some guidance there, and it might start, um, making you more aware of some of these areas that maybe you’re not an A student in. And that’s a great thing. And then also, uh, here’s the thing about supporting the ministry. Last year alone, 530,000 marriages were strengthened, and helped through the efforts here at Focus on the Family by doing a broadcast like this one with the Willis’. It’s just a wonderful way to participate, and that’s the benefit of, you know, getting the book through us and, and providing a donation so we can do this great work. People’s lives are changed.

John: Mm-hmm. And you can donate today, and request your copy of the book, Do Marriage Better, and you’ll find the link to that marriage assessment at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast, or call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, 800-232-6459. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you, and your family thrive in Christ.

Day Two:

Preview:

Dave Willis: Ephesians 4:32 talks about be kind and compassionate to one another, and then it uses a word that I love, tenderhearted, forgiving one another. And I think that tenderness in marriage is usually what we need to lean into when there’s a pattern of offense, of like, how can I, in my tone, in my words, in my pursuit of my spouse, in my thoughtfulness just be tender with them. You know, not rough with them, but just tender with them.

John Fuller: That’s Dave Willis, and he joins us along with his wife, Ashley, on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for being here. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: You know, John, you know it’s good when you’re learning things, and that’s the whole goal for us here at Focus on the Family. And believe me, we learn right alongside you, the listener, the YouTube watcher. These are just good tidbits. And last time with Dave and Ashley, we learned some good things about just making some small corrections in attitude and how we speak to one another in our marriages. You can go back and listen to that by getting the app-

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … on your smartphone or just go to the website and you can, uh, listen to the program last time. Today, we’re gonna continue with this great book, Do Marriage Better: 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. Who doesn’t want that? I hope you have an appetite in your marriage to want to have a better marriage.

John: Yeah, this is really good stuff. Uh, stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast to get a copy, or call us, uh, 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY.

Jim: Dave and Ashley, welcome back.

Dave: Hey. Thank you.

Ashley Willis: Thank you.

Dave: Thanks for having us.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: It’s good. Yeah, it’s always fun. You guys always say hard things with smiles.

Ashley: (laughs).

Jim: You’re really a horrible husband, Jim.

Ashley: (laughs) No.

Jim: No, no, it’s fair. I mean, you wanna have that appetite, and it’s always good to have it within humor, and that’s what we’re getting at. You know, one of the observations I have, we get letters and emails here at Focus on the Family from really broken marriages.

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: And it’s so sad because they loved each other at one time.

Ashley: Mm.

Jim: And you’re thinking, if you could have fought through those things and done these little things that you’re talking about, you could have such a better experience in this life.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: And, and make your marriage something that even your children will go, “Wow, they, Mom and Dad have a great marriage.” What a great goal rather than the alternative, you know?

Dave: Yes.

Jim: We’re done. We don’t like each other anymore. And then everything breaks from there. And, uh, that’s one of the things we’re fighting for every day because we see the stats.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: We know what the impact, particularly on children when mom and dad split. It’s not a good thing. And so we fight for it every day, along with the donors that support us here at Focus. Uh, before we, uh, go back into the detail, let’s do the recap. Give us the seven day of those seven simple shifts that just categorically, and then Ashley, I’m gonna throw it to you to say, give us some help on healthy communication just to bring in last time’s program up to speed here. So you wanna hit the seven for us?

Dave: Yeah, really, we just boiled it down to these main areas that every couple, uh, needs to get aligned with. And every couple ha- talks about these things, money, communication, sex, parenting, uh, legacy, conflict. So w- when you get on the same page with these things, it, it’s gonna move your marriage to a new level.

Jim: And those are really the big things. I mean, I think most people listening watching would say, “Yep, yep.” They’re ticking it off.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

John: (laughs).

Jim: That’s one, that’s two, that’s three. I mean, those are the three areas that we struggle with out of the seven. Maybe you’re saying seven of the seven. (laughs) So Ashley, in that, uh, area, communication, we touched on it last time, just healthy communication, starting with the best interests of your spouse in mind. What does that look like?

Ashley: Well, we talked about how coming to your spouse with curiosity and compassion instead of criticism is really key because it changes the words you say to them, but also the way that you come at them with your tone, because tone is really important too.

Jim: Yeah. You know, one of the main things, we track all the folks in terms of topic, people that call us, uh, and schedule an appointment with our counseling department. And that’s a great service that we have here. If you’re struggling, we can provide a free consultation with certified, uh, state-licensed counselors, and they’ll help you think through the beginnings of getting help and what that might look like. So take advantage of that. Call us if you need help in your marriage or in your parenting. But in that context, we track the themes. And so the things that are up there at the very top will be, uh, financial struggles and then typical physical intimacy is right up there as well.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: It’s, it’s one of the big crushers in marriage and-

Dave: Yeah.

Jim: … it doesn’t need to be that way, but how do we get a healthier grasp on physical intimacy in marriage and make it the wedding present God intended it to be?

Dave: And it is meant to be a gift. And I think one place that we haven’t done a great job as Christianity as a whole, the churches that most of us grew up in, was not celebrating the gift aspect of it. This is a gift, a gift to both spouses that God designed you both for pleasure and connection, and that when you’re leaning into this gift, this intimate gift for a husband and a wife, it’s not only physical pleasure, it’s not only procreation, but mind, body, soul, you’re creating and experiencing this beautiful oneness that God intended for you to have. And if you’re denying yourself that or denying your spouse that consistently, uh, then you’re, you’re making your marriage weaker than it could be, less enjoyable than it could be.

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: And we try to be really delicate talking about this particular topic because there’s so much nuance to it, especially depending on how people were raised, depending on past experiences. We certainly are very, very sensitive to those who’ve, uh, had any type of abuse in their past and this thing that was meant to be a gift was somehow weaponized against them. Uh, that’s tragic and terrible. And so we, we want to not just give these blanket statements to make people that are really suffering and hurting because of past wounds feel like they’re just not measuring up even more. But for all of us, we want to say, just like the book says, this is an area that we can do better. We can experience in a better way. It doesn’t have to be scary or intimidating, and there are simple steps you can do to get there.

Jim: And we’re looking at Ashley. (laughs).

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: What are those simple steps, Ashley?

Dave: Tell us (laughs).

Ashley: Yes, there are steps. Well, I think we first have to realize that physical intimacy is not gonna look the same the duration of your marriage, because we believe there are different seasons of intimacy, and, and that’s based on different circumstances and mindsets and, and everything in between. And so we like to say that there’s four different seasons of intimacy, and we use the letter B because we like alliteration. And so, and these are not necessarily in sequential order, but we have what we refer to as the beach season.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Imagine like a beach chair, and there’s a chair for each season.

Dave: ‘Cause there’s chair that goes with each of these. We, we do this as a talk at conferences and-

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: … have these four chairs on stage and-

Ashley: Exactly. And-

Jim: So you have your beach chair, that sounds good.

Ashley: In your beach chair. It sounds good, right? Who doesn’t love the beach, right? And we often equate this season with the honeymoon season because it’s when physical intimacy seems to be the easiest. We’re having more of it, we’re enjoying it. We feel like everything, you know, is-

Dave: There are no real distractions.

Ashley: Yeah, distractions.

Dave: You got nothing else to do when you’re at the beach. There aren’t-

Ashley: Right.

Dave: … other things to worry about.

Ashley: That’s right. You’re, you have less worries. Everything seems to be working, firing on all cylinders, and there’s not as many frustrations when it comes to physical intimacy. But, I mean, if we stayed at the beach all the time, we’d be sunburned and, and chafed.

Dave: (laughs).

Ashley: So you can’t stay there all the time, right?

Dave: Right. Yeah. You can’t, nobody lives like all day in a beach chair.

Ashley: Right.

Dave: It’s a nice season that you can keep coming back to in your marriage, but the day-to-day life, nobody’s, nobody’s intimate life looks like that all the time because of their seasons. And so it’s beach, busy, babies and broken are the four seasons. And to give kind of like a quick rundown of the other three, the busy season, which is a kitchen stool in our talks-

Ashley: It’s practical.

Dave: … it’s practical. In our house, um, kitchen stool is not a comfortable chair, but it’s the most used chair in the house-

Jim: Right.

Dave: … because of where it is. It’s functional, it’s practical, it’s where kids will sit and do some homework, grab a snack. And that kind of represents the season of your marriage when you’re running, there’s always something to do. And intimacy, you’re not gonna have time probably to burn candles and put on romantic music and, and recite poetry to each other. It’s gonna be quicker, right?

Ashley: Right.

Dave: And, and-

Ashley: You may schedule it.

Dave: Yeah, you might, and you might have to put it on the schedule-

Ashley: Yeah.

Dave: … which for some people doesn’t seem romantic, but it’s super practical. Uh, and we talk more about, you know, what that can look like-

Ashley: What that can look like.

Dave: … uh, in the book. So there’s the busy season, the baby season, which is when you’re trying to get pregnant or you are pregnant or you have young babies at home, uh, it’s represented by like a nursery rocker. And intimacy’s really, uh, different in that season, especially if you’re going through infertility struggles where all of a sudden just the act itself can feel mentally like this, this, we’re failing at this. It can create a wedge between husbands and wife. There’s a lot of couples that we’ve, uh, counseled through the years with that, that struggle, and we have so much sensitivity to them. If you’ve got young babies at home, man, it’s hard. You’re, you’re exhausted. And then just with God’s sense of humor, He, He made this act the very way that children are created. And then once children come, they try to make sure you never have it again.

Ashley: (laughs).

Dave: Like they, they just know. They will, they’ll beat on the door at the worst time.

Jim: Oh, it’s exhaustion.

Dave: It’s exhaustion. Yeah.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: It’s all of that.

Ashley: All the things.

Jim: And, you know, let me ask you, Ashley, because I think, you know, uh, what’s hard typically, and again, it, it, there’s, you know, the couple listening that it’s not, it’s not the way they experience, and I get that. I don’t want to be mindless about that. But typically, you know, men are, we’ve got testosterone, this is an appetite. A lot of women don’t want to hear that. Like, this is just there. It’s present. We’re thinking about it a lot.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Um, and in that context, our ability as men, as husbands, to notice the season and say, okay, I mean, how do we relax that and not turn that into a feud, one more thing that is gonna be irritating to you as a wife or, you know, to the husband? But in that context, how do we go with the season? Season sounds like a long time-

Ashley: It does.

Jim: … when you’re talking about physical intimacy, which, you know, we’re hoping for a more regular dose-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: Yeah.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: … to be quite honest. And so how do we manage that or how would you recommend husbands manage that a little better?

Ashley: Yes. No, I think being aware of it and being sensitive to it is half the battle because I do think that where a lot of couples have, you know, a lot of frustration in this area of intimacy is thinking the other just doesn’t care, you know? It just, she doesn’t even care about my needs or he doesn’t care about my needs. And then they both, neither one do anything about it. They just are mad at each other. And that is a libido killer right there, right?

Jim: Right.

Ashley: And so it, you know, the sensitivity from a husband really eases the wife, but I would also say this, because I remember those days being touched out, having small children-

Jim: Oh, yeah.

Ashley: … nursing and just all the different things, it just doesn’t build romance for a woman, right? And so one thing a husband can do is help more than he thinks he needs to be helping because there’s a lot of stuff that even if you are like nursing your baby that only the mom can do, so husbands, just pitch in as much as you can just to lift that load a little bit. But I also think we need to pay attention, our husbands need to pay attention especially in this season, to the non-intimate affection they are giving their wife, because in the counseling space, I hear all the time from wives especially in this season, they say, “He only wants to touch me if he thinks it’s leading elsewhere, like to full on intimacy. And I feel like it’s just meeting his needs and he doesn’t care about me.” And the husbands will say, “No, I do care. I just, I feel like she’s touched out during the day.” And so what it boils down to is wives need more of that non-intimate touch from their husband.

Dave: Well, it’s still intimate. It’s not-

Ashley: It’s… Well, not, not-

Dave: It’s not leading to the bedroom.

Ashley: Right. It’s not leading to the bedroom.

Dave: Yeah, where husbands, you, you are touching your wife, showing affection-

Ashley: It’s affectionate. Exactly.

Dave: … without any agenda other than just wanting to show her affection.

Ashley: Right.

Dave: And that will build her tank up. And for wives and husbands both to just realize how, like you were saying, Jim, differently, we’re wired on this. God, by God’s design, we’re wired differently, and you have two completely different mindsets as it relates to intimacy. The husband’s like, “I’m stressed, let’s go to the bedroom.”

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: The wife’s like, “I’m stressed, don’t touch me.”

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And neither of those is wrong because it’s how God made us, but just understanding that difference can help both spouses really be able to serve each other, relate to each other, have patience and tenderness with each other, keep your sense of humor with each other. And instead of trying to change each other, like, you should be more like this or you should have more drive or whatever, to take a step back and say, “Well, how can I serve and love my spouse right where they are?” And for both spouses to say, “Whatever season we’re in, how do we make it a priority in this season?” Because you can’t just say, “Well, we’re just not gonna do it for years.” It needs to be regular.

Ashley: Right.

Dave: In every season, for the sake of your marriage, it really needs to be regular. What regular means, that number’s gonna look different in different seasons, but-

Ashley: Very, very different.

Jim: (laughs) I’m thinking someone’s going, “Tell me the number.”

Dave: Tell me the number.

Ashley: That’s always the question, right?

Jim: And it’s always, “Figure it out.”

Dave: Yeah, figure it out.

Ashley: Right, right.

Dave: Yeah. God, God has a sense of humor.

Jim: Yeah.

Dave: Figure it out. Yeah.

Jim: Ashley, when you look at the book, again, 7 Simple Shifts, in this area, what was something that really connected with you emotionally as a wife and a woman? Uh, what made a difference for you to say, “Okay, I can relax in this area. I don’t feel like I’m on roll call,” or was there something Dave did that-

Dave: How do you know-

Ashley: Yes.

Dave: … that she’s not the one all over me all the time?

Jim: (laughs).

Dave: Like-

Jim: No, I, uh-

Dave: Some days I feel like I’m just a, a piece of meat and I need-

Ashley: Oh my goodness.

Dave: I have emotional needs too. (laughs)

Jim: You can… We’ll get you in a minute, Dave.

Ashley: Wow. Okay.

Jim: But, you know, I just, I, I’m thinking of that little breakthrough, which is really-

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: … the theme of the book. What was something that really helped you to say, “Okay, this helps me better understand Dave.”

Ashley: You know, and I, and this isn’t just my story. I hear this from a lot of women. I know in that season of raising babies in particular, I would often look at physical intimacy as another thing on the list, and that’s easy-

Jim: A to-do.

Ashley: As a to-do. Yeah. Right. And I’m checking the boxes all day and I knew that, you know, I needed to make a shift in that, that this is a gift. This isn’t just checking the box. And a real breakthrough for us was there was one day where I, um, you know, we talk about something called, um, a physical intimacy threshold where, like, you can agree on a number of days that you don’t let this many days pass without at least talking about it.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: Like, when can we engage, okay? And so I knew we were coming up on that, that day for us and, and I mentioned it to Dave and I think he felt the tension from me. And it wasn’t that I didn’t wanna engage. I was just feeling pressure because it can feel like a pressure.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: And, um, as the day went on, I was like, “We’ll get to it.” Well, you know, I’m just, I’m like communicating with him, because communication is a huge part of having a thriving intimate life. And so, um, anyway, we get to kind of the end of the day and, and Dave’s like, “Listen, I want this to be a good experience for both of us, and I’m not here just to check a box. I’m here because I want to connect with you. Like, I, not just being physically intimate, but just you. I want you. I just want to have a moment with you.” And that meant a lot to me because I think sometimes as women, we can just think, like, I’ve just got to keep up this pace of checking this box or, you know, he’s going to be angry and he’s going to have frustration. And, and I think when we just look at it like that, we’re missing out on the gift.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: And when I made that mind shift, it really, it really helped me to just know, like, this is about connection. This isn’t about checking a box. This is for both of us to connect in a way, in a special way that God, you know, gave us for marriage. Like He, He made this for marriage as a special gift.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Can I, this is really good because I think it’s so helpful for couples. Getting from the old place to the new place, how do I do that? How do I go from just another thing on the to-do list and frustration to-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … okay, gift, enjoyable-

Ashley: Right.

Jim: … something good to do, and not resent it? If I could-

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: … put it in that context.

Ashley: Right.

Jim: What’s the spiritual magic in that regard and how do I get there if I’m more on the to-do side?

Ashley: Well, I’m glad you said spiritual because that is the key is you pray about it. You actually pray about your intimate life.

Jim: Mm.

Ashley: And that is something, uh, we talk about quite a bit with couples and their eyes kind of go like, “What?”

Dave: God wants to hear about that?

Ashley: Like, God wants us to pray about that? And it’s like, yes. He created it for marriage. Why would you not pray about that? And that’s something, you know, especially in that season where we were a bit at odds with this. When I committed to praying about that and we prayed together about that, it really started to, to shift. And it wasn’t overnight. This doesn’t happen overnight. Changes are usually little by little.

Jim: But it has to be mindful.

Ashley: Yes, yes.

Jim: All of this, even for the husband on the things we need to work on.

John: Yeah. Dave and Ashley Willis are our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and, uh, we’re talking about some of the content in their terrific book, Do Marriage Better. And we have copies of that book here and, uh, we’ll link over to it as well as our counseling team, which Jim mentioned earlier. And the starting point is going to be FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And I so appreciate the, the tone and the approach that you’re taking to this topic. And Dave, you were pretty vulnerable in the book about a season where, um, that drive was just something that was gone for you.

Dave: Yeah. Yeah.

John: And no doubt there are couples who are dealing with that.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

John: So I’d love for you to talk a little bit more about that season, which I think you called the broken chair.

Dave: That’s right. That’s right. The broken season, uh, which is, is the fourth and the chair that is just broken. And there’s gonna be, there will be times in your marriage where for physical distance issues, physical health issues, emotional issues, trust issues, there will be brokenness in this part of the marriage that you need to tenderly work through together. And we’ve experienced the broken season a few times in our marriage already. The first time, uh, was years ago when I had a struggle with pornography ear- early in our marriage and, and just, uh, the intimate wound that that caused to Ashley and working through that trust being rebuilt together was the first time we walked through it. And we talked some about that in the book. The second time we walked through the broken season, it wasn’t because of a trust issue or a sin issue. It was a, a health issue on my part where I’d always had a very strong drive and assumed I always would, uh, but I got a, a thyroid disorder, this autoimmune condition that, uh, before it was diagnosed and properly medicated had just tanked my energy, my thought life, like I had brain fog all the time, and I was just sort of a wreck. And Ashley was so, so kind and encouraging walking with me through that season where for the first time ever, uh, the bedroom, which is a place I’d always wanted to just sprint to, I was reluctant to go because I had such a fear of inadequacy, I had anxiety around how my body is gonna even respond, and it was a very, very vulnerable time. Um, and, uh, she was so patient and so tender through that. And so over a period of time, not a super long amount of time, but over what felt like a long amount of time, finally got on the right medications, got myself feeling like myself again and was back to feeling good and I’m feeling good right now and I’m very thankful for that. But I’ll tell you that in that broken season, uh, that we walked through for those months, uh, I’m thankful for that time because it’s in the broken season sometimes of life that God does the best work. You know, the Bible says the Lord’s close to the brokenhearted. And I think that, that relates to the broken seasons of our marriage as well and even the broken seasons of our intimate life in marriage, that God does something special in the vulnerability that can only happen in those moments when you feel like, “I can’t do this on my own.”

John: Yeah.

Dave: And, uh, and He really showed up and Ashley really showed up. And so now, I know we’ll likely walk through a broken season again for health issues or whatever might come in the future, but I’m not afraid of it anymore-

John: Mm-hmm.

Dave: … because I know that even in the different challenges we’ll face with it, God’s always doing something special. And if you’re listening and you’re in a broken season right now because of health issues or trust issues or whatever it might be, just know God sees you, He is with you.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: He is gonna walk with you through it and you will not be there forever.

Jim: Uh, let me ask you again, Ashley, and Dave, we’ll follow up with you, but I, I wanna turn to the legacy idea of what we’re building within family. Some couples do that intentionally, some couples are doing it accidentally.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: How do we have intentionality when it comes to building a legacy as we’re married 40, 50, maybe even 60 years before we go on to heaven and we leave our kids, our adult kids with the grandkids and maybe even some great-grandkids?

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: What is that legacy target? What are we trying to communicate? “Yeah, get through it and hopefully it’ll work out and we’ll see you in heaven.”

Dave: (laughs).

Jim: Doesn’t sound like a very good legacy.

Ashley: Right. I think we have to continuously dream together, and legacy is a huge part of that. It’s like, why did, why did God bring us together? I mean, why did He put Dave and Ashley together? Why did He put, you know, you and your spouse together? Like, what is it? And it’s gonna look, I think that you can look back, especially for those who’ve been married a long time, you can look back and say, “Well, in this season, it was this. In this season, it was this.” And I think it can look different in different seasons, but overall, I think it’s good to every year, you know, to take an assessment and to say, you know, what went right, what didn’t go so right, what do we need to improve, but also, what is our marriage speaking to those around us?

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: Like, what is that overarching message? And I know, you know, for us, I mean, there’s many, many things that we wanna leave behind as a legacy, but I think the biggest one is that marriage is awesome. Like, I, you know, even going through the hard moments, marriage is wonderful, it is a gift, and that there is hope even in the hard times. Um, that’s something that we always wanna point to. But I think for every couple, just coming back to that reason that God brought them together, because I think in hard seasons, especially those broken seasons we talked about, we lose sight of that because we’re just in, we’re in critical condition, we’re just trying to survive, right? But in order to thrive, we have to think about that bigger picture.

Jim: Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot.

Ashley: Mm.

Jim: Let me ask you guys right at the end here, why don’t you give the pitch for why the book’s so important? I don’t think we do this very often, but, or maybe never.

Ashley: (laughs).

Jim: But you wrote it. I love it. I love the content, Do Marriage Better. Um, marriage feels like it’s on the ropes in the culture. We see all the social data. You know, if we, as a culture, really wanted to get to a better place, we need to protect marriage-

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: … at all costs, because it delivers healthy children and a healthy culture. So what’s your greatest, uh, pitch for the book?

Dave: I would say anything that matters to us, we naturally have an inclination of wanting to improve.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Dave: And for some people that’s, “I wanna get better at investing money. I wanna get better at my fitness. I wanna get better at my work.” And, and those are all fine goals, but none of those hold a candle to the impact of getting better in your marriage, because when we improve our marriage, every part of life will get better as a result. And when our marriage is, is hurting, um, every part of our life will, will start to hurt as a result. And God wants your marriage to thrive. He doesn’t want you just to survive it. He wants you to thrive and to leave a legacy through your marriage. And maybe you feel like, “Yeah, we’re not on the path to do that right now. It’s just the struggle.” God wants to help you take those next steps and just get, get better. You don’t have to fix everything all at once-

Ashley: Right.

Dave: … but you can make decisions all at once to put you on a new path. And this book, as practically as we can make it from working with couples, uh, for the last 15 years or so, and from our own marriage and from what God’s Word says about these things, have tried to distill these concepts down into the, the simplest action steps possible, because I’m a pretty simple-minded guy. It’s gotta be clear for me. And so we’ve tried to make it clear. And I, I promise you, if you’ll do these things, it will make a positive difference in your marriage. Not because we invented any of this, but because this is how God designed marriage to be. And we’ve seen this work over and over, not only in our own marriage, but in the marriages of, of many people we’ve been able to learn from and also to help.

Ashley: Right. I mean, I think this book, ideally, a couple does it together, but we always like to say it takes one spouse going first. I even think one spouse could read this and little by little make those simple shifts and you will see a difference. And it’s not gonna happen overnight. It’s not one giant step, it’s just you’re inching towards those goals.

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Ashley: But every inch matters, every shift matters. And so as far as it depends on you, make those shifts.

Jim: Yeah.

Ashley: And I think you’ll experience some positive, um, effects from it.

Jim: Well, and you guys have done it. I mean, it’s not impossible.

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: And it’s a valid thing to aim for-

Ashley: Yes.

Jim: … is to want to do better, to understand your spouse better for all the benefits we’ve talked about.

Ashley: Absolutely.

Jim: Mainly your children so they come out with secure, loving attachments-

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … so that they can carry that legacy forward into their marriages, right?

Ashley: Right.

Jim: So thanks for being with us. It’s been great. It’s so good to talk with you, uh, both. It’s, it’s a wonderful experience every time. So thank you.

Dave: Well, thank you for having us.

Ashley: Thank y’all.

Dave: We love Focus on the Family. We love you two guys and, uh, we just are honored to have the conversation.

Ashley: We are.

Jim: Well, it’s, it’s good. And let me turn to the listener. You know, here at Focus on the Family, we’re committed to helping you build the strongest, healthiest marriage possible. We’re trying to do that ourselves, everybody.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: This is good. It’s good for each one of us to do that. And we have so many great tools to help you. Uh, one is our counseling team. We’re here for you. It’s a great way. You’ll call the 1-800 number. John will provide that in a moment. They’ll schedule a time they can call you back and talk about what you’re facing and give you some great insight on what to do next, which might include, uh, tapping into our extensive, uh, referral network across the country. There are probably people near you that are Christian counselors that can help. Another great resource, obviously, is the book by the Willis’, Do Marriage Better: 7 Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. If you can make a gift of any amount, we’ll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. If you can’t afford it, we’re here. We’re a Christian ministry. We want your marriage to be better. Just get in touch with us, let us know that you need the book but you can’t afford it, and we’ll take care of it, trusting others will cover the cost.

John: Mm-hmm.

Jim: Let me also say, the bigger part of that investment, that donation effort, let me give you the payback for what, uh, you’re doing with us. Sarah wrote in and told us this. “Thank you so much for the heart and care you put into Focus on the Family. Your conversations and biblical guidance have been such an encouragement to my marriage, especially as we navigate complicated family relationships and changing seasons.” That’s right in their-

John: Mm.

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

Jim: … uh, wheelhouse there, the chairs, right? “I’m truly grateful for the wisdom and compassion you share. It’s made a real difference for us.”

John: That-

Jim: That’s it.

John: That’s wonderful.

Jim: That’s the payback.

John: Yeah, that’s why we exist as a ministry, to do that-

Jim: Totally.

John: … kind of impact.

Jim: And, uh, that’s what we look at. We go out and survey those, about two million people a year contact us for help, and together, we’re able to touch them, so, and help them. That’s what really matters. So please, consider donating today.

John: Yeah, you can, uh, make that contribution when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. That’s 800-232-6459, or online at FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast. And join us next time as Jennifer Dukes Lee shares how she’s, uh, learned to slow down in the different seasons of her life.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: And sometimes it’s the little things like that. Having a friend or someone we love remind us that God delights in us, not just in what we are growing in our fields or in our lives. Like, God delights in us wherever we happen to be in the growth process.

John: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.